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Authenticity is Everything
Has Autograph collecting become less of a hobby and more of a business.
The internet has made it easy to trade. With the birth of the ebay flipper, where is our hobby heading? Is the hobby more of a business for flippers who are inflating our loved autographs. Its not uncommon to see items sold at auctions and resold a week later for double the amount. There also seems to be more and more flippers around.
Whats doing more damage to the prices the flippers or the forgers?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on
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David, I agree, there is nothing wrong with honest seller using their knowledge to purchase an item at a good price, and marking it up. the buyer will determine the market price. if it is marked up too much, it will sit, much like many of the BIN items on ebay.
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Permalink Reply by Paul on
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That's what I had in mind autographs 99 on ebay the items just sitting around also other items that have huge marks ups. That's why I was thinking the prices would come down with more people opening shop.
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Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on
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I've noticed this happening quite a bit, with people winning an RR item, and then going for the flip on eBay.
I also occasionally see someone buy from RR then put it on eBay at a significantly higher price. The question is, 'are they actually selling on eBay?" RR items typically sell for around top of market prices, leaving little room, if any, for further markup.
In my experience with space items, I often see items at RR that I previously saw on eBay. At RR, they sell for a multiple of the eBay price. IMO, eBay is often "wholesale" pricing... great bargains for experienced collectors who know what they are doing. A minefield for the inexperienced and/or naive.
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You right Steve ebay can be a great place for bargains. Sometimes I buy of members here who have bought of eBay and make a bit of a profit from it but that's fair. It's item that aren't authentic you see sell on than someone buys them with a huge mark up.
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Permalink Reply by James on
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I agree, Steve. Just because a person goes for the flip doesn't mean the flip won't flop! If you buy something at RR, your chances of success in doubling the price probably are not very good. To the person trying to nearly double the price for a JFK, going from RR to eBay, I say good luck.
Saying that eBay is often wholesale pricing, I think is often a very accurate statement. I'm not sure eBay always reflects the "real" market value for an item. I've often compared eBay to a giant garage sale. And what to people try to accomplish at garage sales? They look to buy cheap. There are so many people everyday that are scouring eBay for good deals. And they won't pull the trigger until they get a great deal. So a lot of times, I think eBay may be the wrong place to try and get full value for an item you are selling. If you want to sell low, it may sell fast. But if you want full value, well...good luck. It may take a long while. Therefore, I think that major auction houses are actually a better gauge for true market value.
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Permalink Reply by David S on
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From my experience on ebay (been on there since 1998) there are certain items that generate big sales, while others don't. My feeling is that higher end items sell for more at auction houses, while lower end items bring a better return on ebay.
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Permalink Reply by Mike T on
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One of the most interesting questions to me is whether or not the existence of so many forgeries hurts or helps the value of authentic material. Does the existence of an authentic item in a field of forgeries put a premium price tag on that item that otherwise wouldn't be there? Why do people pay more for authentic items with PSA/DNA certs than authentic items without any certs? Why do auction houses with prestigious reputations get more for their authentic material than you or I would get on our own for the same authentic material?
It seems to me at least, that the very existence of all these forgeries drives the price of authentic material much higher, which can be both good and bad for the collector. If people didn't seek the added precaution of a PSA/DNA cert or the backing of a reputable auction house, the value of autographs would be much lower.
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That's what I'm digging for Mike. What you have just articulated. Not to just have my whine and cheese.
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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on
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I think the opposite is true, Mike. Forgeries of high-demand, often forged autographs greatly suppresses the value of genuine ones. Look at all the galleries selling forgeries in Las Vegas and other tourist spots, where people can buy Beatles albums for 10 cents on the dollar. American Royal Arts sold untold millions of dollars in fake albums, guitars and other signed memorabilia.
If forgeries weren't such a big problem, many autographs would be much higher than they are today.
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This is true, but you are assuming that these less intelligent "collectors" who are buying fully signed Zeppelin albums for $1-2k on a whim in Vegas would also spend the proper $10k on a real one if given the opportunity. I don't see that happening all that often. I believe a large percentage of forgeries only ever get sold because they target that "just right" price range. People are willing to spend $100 on the chance that it might be real, but not quite the $1000 to guarantee the real deal. It seems counter intuitive to you and I, but that is unfortunately how consumers in this world think with their money.
It's an interesting question, but do you think ARA would have sold nearly as many items if they had priced everything at true market value for authentic material? I don't think they would have ever sold that one of a kind beatles guitar for $500,000. Hopefully any buyer willing to shell out that cash would have asked a few questions first. I don't think they would have been nearly as successful. They knew their prices had to be in that "just right" range.
With no forgeries in this hobby, I think you would have less people who buy the forgeries (obviously), but the collectors that are willing to spend the money to get the real deal are still the same ones out there doing it today.
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Permalink Reply by Rick Meyer on
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Not to mention how many collectors have left the hobby because of the enormous number of forgeries leaving less collectors to buy which also hurts the value of authentic autographs.
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Permalink Reply by Sports n Stuff on
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Exactly steve...if forgeries werent around that would eliminate a large amount of auto's out there! Making supply less and asking price more, ideally leading to a higher price per said autograph!
In the 80's and 90's this is why a lot of players wouldn't sign 3x5 cards as they were afraid people would forge their autographs...and this didnt just pertain to the Stud players but even the small dogs wouldn't sign them as they didnt want people making money off them. However as someone stated, they should be thankful that you, me, anyone pays them to play or get an autograph, etc! But welcome to Capitalism...this is what you get! If said authenticator/grader doesn't have cards, etc, to give "their opinion on" they will go out of business!
It's like these card companies...you can't tell me that in today's day and age every card made can't be perfect! If we can cut out metal parts for cars, machines, etc to the T..then a piece of cardboard should be able to be almost perfect every time it's cut! However look at cards on eBay...you've got a 8.5 then a 10 and they really don't look that much off from one another. And now their selling digital cards! This is now the start of the decline of the industry as a whole! If xyz card co. doesn't have a few cards that already have 100 variations plus autographs and everyone was a perfect 10, then these grading co's would lose business eventually leading to the card co's losing, selling sites losing, etc! But with the creation of the Internet, we've pretty much dug our own graves as its led to this...questions about everything!
And now that these digital cards are out..what's gonna be fun about collecting if all you do is download a card/digital image of a card to a computer? And people are paying big bucks as I type this!
All I know is I have tons of items that if I wanted to sell need authentication to get top dollar but in the end is paying $15-$20 for an item worth it to only get what you paid for authenticating it, no! One last thing about the grading is, also if you look online..you see the same people with all of the same cards graded by the same company and usually the top players! All a person needs to do is type in kris Bryant and see he's getting(asking) more for his rookie cards than Mike Trout. To me,Bryant shouldn't be commanding $20k-$40k w/o evening taking a swing in the majors! Or as some people pay more for the first one or the last one or the persons jersey #! Heck Bryant has worn 5-8 different jersey #'s yet people think just cause that's what's on the card..it's worth 2-3 times the value of cards #2-35! To me an autographed card is an autograph card. None of those components I listed make anything different than the other!
Also, on the flipping side..when you have people buying then grading then selling for or asking $x...or even just turning it around for double profit..it's sad but its apart of the game(I guess)! But I think I've seen more people turn around for pennies than to make a real profit or lose money period!
Period everything comes down to what someone is willing to pay for something! That sets the value! But the problem with eBay is you have people with 3 or more accts shilling their items or others up..which in return screws everything up! How can the same 5 people be bidding on an item that sells for $15 then the same item pops up a day later and those people aren't bidding and the same item sells for $8.99?
The hobby as a whole is like gas prices...one year a gallon costs $3.75, and look now its under $3! It's all a big circle jerk behind backdoors!
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