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Authenticity is Everything
Bob Dylan AUTOPEN Info To Help With Returns / Refunds - Simon & Schuster, Premiere, and Coles
***URGENT UPDATE
Previous update
Some users have uncovered potential autopen use within Bob Dylan's expensive art prints. Please check your prints if you own one and post a picture on this thread if you have any concerns.
here is a link to one of his art prints in question
https://www.castlefineart.com/art/bob-dylan/cactus
*UPDATE - Let this be a warning to ALL publishers and celebrities in the future. We are sick and tired of these autopen releases. Our community has had enough and absolutely will not stand for this practice to continue any longer!!!
I want to point out that Coles Books needs to be commended. They made sure to look out for their customers and refused to ship these out if they came from the same S&S stock, which they did. It was also an easy process to cancel orders beforehand if you wished. Coles. on behalf of everyone, I want to thank you for having integrity and watching out for all of us.
I can NOT say the same about Premiere Collectibles. They refused to honor cancelation requests until it was known these books were in fact autopenned. They advertise themselves claiming they are collectors themselves. This is not true. They are a retailer first and only care about your money. There have been other autopen incidents where they absolutely refused to accept blame, stating items were real when they were clearly deemed autopen by the community. Be careful with future purchases with Premiere Collectibles.
This email came directly from Jonathan Karp at Simon and Schuster. If anyone still wishes to send him a message, here is his email address as well.
jonathan.karp@simonandschuster.com
We apologize for the mistake that was made and are offering a full refund of your purchase. Please keep your copy of The Philosophy of Modern Song at no cost. We hope you will enjoy reading it.
Sincerely,
Jonathan Karp
Here are 51 articles and counting detailing our combined efforts on this forum
New York Post - Screenshot.jpg
New York Times - Screenshot.jpg
Los Angeles Times - Screenshot.jpg
Washington Post - Screenshot.jpg
Rolling Stone - Screenshot.jpg
Rolling Stone pt2 - Screenshot.jpg
Billboard pt2 - Screenshot.jpg
The Daily Beast - Screenshot.jpg
Ultimate Classic Rock - Screenshot.jpg
Poetic Justice - Screenshot.jpg
The Music Universe - Screenshot.jpg
I Heart Radio - Screenshot.jpg
Publishers Lunch - Subscription required
Spiegel - Translated Screenshot.jpg
Far Out Magazine - Screenshot.jpg
American Songwriter - Screenshot.jpg
American Top 40 - Screenshot.jpg
We Got This Covered - Screenshot.jpg
Healthcare Buisness - Screenshot.jpg
Sydney Morning Herald - Screenshot.jpg
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ORIGINAL POST
I am creating this thread as a comprehensive all in 1 link for returns, refunds, chargebacks and claims made regarding the "signed" edition of Bob Dylan - The Philosophy Of Modern Song. Please use this link to email Simon & Schuster, Coles, and Premiere Collectables as 100% proof these were signed using an autopen machine.
I would like to say right off the bat, Coles Books in the UK is handling this professionally and seem to care deeply about their customer base. They have stated that, once they are in hand, If they find evidence of them being autopenned, they will cancel all orders.. Kudos to Coles.. I wish all retailers would follow their lead. If you wish to cancel your order with them immediately instead of waiting, It seems to be an easy process.
This post will be continuously updated with new information over the next few days
Please refer to this article for the time being until more information is added
https://www.iheartradio.ca/newstalk-1290-cjbk/news/collectors-quest...
Here is the post I created a few weeks ago with info regarding the Indigo incident.
https://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/indigo-bob-dylan-po...
So far, there have been a total of 17 confirmed different templates for the autopen machine used for Bob Dylans signature. I am in the process of creating video comparisons for all 17 sets. Please post full page photos of your item as they are delivered to aid in this process
Here are all 17 templates used by Bob Dylan - I am still looking for full page photos for numbers 8,13 and 15 thru 17 but its still best to post whatever you receive
Be aware when checking against your own copy, it has come to light that they are possibly using 1st and last names interchangeably. Bob in #2 matches perfectly with Bob in #13 while Dylan in both are different
14th variation confirmed
15th variation
16th variation - Seems to be almost an exact combination of #11 and #13 with a different vertical line in his "D"
17th variation
Video and photo comparisons created so far
Video of set 1 Dylan1.mp4 - Photo of set 1 Dylan1.JPG
Video of set 2 Dylan2.mp4 - Photo of set 2 Dylan2.JPG
Video of set 3 Dylan3.mp4 - Photo of set 3 Dylan3.JPG
Video of set 4 Dylan4.mp4 - Photo of set 4 Dylan4.JPG
Video of set 5 Dylan5.mp4 - Photo of set 5 Dylan5.JPG
Video of set 6 Dylan6.mp4 - Photo of set 6 Dylan6.JPG
Video of set 7 Dylan7.mp4 - Photo of set 7 Dylan7.JPG
Video of set 9 Dylan9.mp4 - Photo of set 9 Dylan9.JPG
Video of set 10 Dylan10.mp4 - Photo of set 10 Dylan10.JPG
Video of set 11 Dylan11.mp4 - Photo of set 11 Dylan11.JPG
Video of set 12 Dylan12.mp4 - Photo of set 12 Dylan12.JPG
Video of set 14 Dylan14.mp4 - Photo of set 14 Dylan14.JPG
Here are the COAs stating these books were in fact hand-signed
Suzanne Baboneau for UK - Certificate Of Authenticity UK.jpg
Jonathan Karp for USA - Certificate Of Authenticity USA.JPG
Coles listing before it was removed - Coles Website Listing.jpg
Important emails:
Jonathan Karp US - CEO of Simon & Schuster
jonathan.karp@simonandschuster.com
Duane Ward of Premiere Collectables
duane@premierespeakers.com - Others have tried duane@premierecollectables.com
Suzanne Baboneau, Managing Director
suzanne.baboneau@simonandschuster.co.uk
Ian Chapman, UK - CEO
ian.chapman@simonandschuster.co.uk
Bob Dylan's Manager
Jeff Kramer
OK Management
275 South Beverly Drive
Suite 215
Beverly Hills, CA 90212
Phone: 310-535-1647
Bob Dylan's Agent
Brian Greenbaum
Creative Artists Agency
2000 Avenue Of The Stars
Los Angeles, CA 90067
Phone: 424-288-2000
Bob Dylan's Production Agent
Sony/Columbia/CBS Records
550 Madison Avenue
New York, NY 10022
Phone: 212-833-7305
Bob Dylan's Law Firm
Manatt Phelps & Phillips
11355 West Olympic Boulevard
Los Angeles, CA 90064
Phone: 310-312-4000
Bob Dylan's Twitter
Tweet or privatly message Bob on his verified Twitter account.
https://twitter.com/bobdylan/
Bob Dylan's Facebook
Post or message Bob on his verified Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/bobdylan/
I also found this email associated with Bob Dylans store. Its worth a try
BOBDYLAN@EPICRIGHTS.COM
Media Publications who may be eager to pick up this story - Please email them a link to this post and all related content
https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/corp/contactus.html
For story pitches, please send:
News to Jim Milliot and John Maher
Soapbox ideas to Rachel Deahl
Features to features@publishersweekly.com
Related content:
Dolly Parton is also guilty of using multiple autopens in the same fashion with multiple templates over the years but with a slight twist where they manipulate the page as the autopen machine writes her signature. If we are looking to stop all future attempts at autopen usage, she needs to be held accountable just as much as Bob Dylan and S&S. Link to threads below
Here is a great example provided by Eric Keith Longo
Dolly Parton Autopen Example.jpg
http://www.feelnumb.com/2022/03/09/dolly-parton-fake-autograph-song...
https://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/dolly-parton-signed...
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by PFCollector on
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I'm pretty sure they can authorize a signature for someone else to sign for them. It would be like if a president wasn't there to sign a bill into law, they can authorize a clerk to autopen sign it. Obama was the first president to do that if I remember right. So I don't see why an artist couldn't do that. As long as they have the person's permission it can be a legal signature. It's only a counterfeit signature if they didn't authorize someone else to do it. Or even signing electronically, you authorize your online tax filer to sign your name and submit your taxes electronically. That's legal to do even though it's not your signature because you authorized them to do it. Unless maybe there's a difference when it comes to art that I don't know about... but I assume not since artists don't even have to ever see their art in person to make it "by" them. I know of a mural that was "done by" an artist that was never in the room while it was painted and I'm pretty sure never visited it after, but he's credited as the artist who did the work. So I don't see why that would change just for the signature.
The reason that don't apply here is because they sold them as being hand signed by Bob Dylan. So that's where they screwed up legally I'd think.
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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on
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I'm not sure. If he authorized it it is "genuine".
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Yeah that could very well make a difference. Like I said I'm no lawyer, but I know lawyers will dig through every word and find any little flaw they can use to weasel their way out of being held liable, then argue it to the death... but every single word matters and can make a difference.
The law pretty much screws collectors by defining autopen, stamps, authorized signatures, etc as legal signatures... since technically all those are legally signatures, selling stamped signed stuff is legal... but it's fairly obvious nobody who collects autographs wants stamps or something signed by a secretary. I wish they'd update the law to either define collectible signatures as having to be hand signed, or a minimum, that they need to specify the method of signing to be able to sell signatures... but even then I could see someone saying the CD I sold is $20 signed or not, so I gave away the stamped signature, I didn't sell it. So I'm sure they'd find a loophole... but at least it could improve things some.
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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on
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As I understand it, if he authorized it that's not considered genuine. It's a signature not signed by the person that's an authorized legal replacement for specific purposes that has the same value to the recipient for that purpose as one actually signed by the person.
A celeb can use one to sign a fan letter as long as it's not represented as signed by the celeb. It can't be used for art or books if it's represented as signed by the subject.
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That would make sense and be good for collectors... but then there's the problem of who would actually enforce those rules? We see Dylan doing millions in fraud and it doesn't seem like anyone in law enforcement would be concerned with it... but good the rules are there at least.
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Law enforcement typically doesn't open a case unless a victim in their jurisdiction files a crime report.
Both the signed books and prints are primarily handled by an FBI Art Crime office. The most active ones are in Queens, outside of NYC, and in Chicago. They would need a victim in their jurisdiction to file a crime report.
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I'd report it if I was in their jurisdiction. I reported it to the FTC but never got a response, at least yet... but I don't expect them to care. I've never gotten any help from any consumer protection agencies when I've tried or needed it... same for law enforcement I guess too. So I didn't have my hopes up that any justice would come from this. Maybe I'm just pessimistic.
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That's legal, some artists don't even make their own art Maurizio Cattelan for example, or even Andy Warhol, just tell their employees what to make and it's considered their art... but the fact they specified "hand signed by Bob Dylan" that would mean that legally they need to be that. They would need to be signed by someone's hand, and that hand being Bob Dylan, since they worded it that way specifically.
I could see maaaaaybe getting away with it being hand signed by his secretary possibly being legal, since it says hand signed by Bob Dylan... that could be argued legally that it was "hand signed" and by Bob Dylan meaning he authorized it to be signed for him...
If they just said signed by Bob Dylan they could have gotten away with autopen or secretary signed legally... not that they didn't get away with it as it is... but if sued they could plausibly deny it I would guess. Since then it only has to be authorized by Bob Dylan to be a legal signature. In a legal sense, every single word adds meaning.
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Permalink Reply by Jason H on
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I can see that now.. this needs to be pitched for an episode of law and order.. I've never been a fan but id for sure watch that episode
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I guess I didn't pay attention to that part... I would assume that couldn't be argued that it could be secretarial then if they worded it that way.
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I get what you are saying. its legal for it to be done but I'm still having a hard time with the actual sale and COA of the item. I would think stating its hand signed by Dylan still changes the argument into deception if that statement is not accurate. I guess the legal question would be, can a signature that was authorized by Dylan actually be considered Dylan's signature instead of an agent signing on his behalf, specifically for an item sold to consumers and not just for legal documents. This variation is where it seems deception would become a factor
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