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Authenticity is Everything
Calling all John Wayne experts, need your opinion
This would be a good case study for this forum and what better place with all the autograph experts. And, all the PSA /JSA discussion going on.
I recently sent a John Wayne letter to someone who I respect as a very skilled authenticator. He is also probably consulted quite often by PSA for vintage Hollywood. His opinion was that the John Wayne letter below is secretarial. Hence, I assume it would probably not pass PSA. I am NOT “questioning” his expertise. But, I would like to hear from anyone who has a good level of expertise with John Wayne. I have a good background with his signature which is why I am a bit baffled here. Below is the letter with two PSA pre-cert and cert photos I bought from R&R. They are both from the same time frame as the letter signature, 1976-1977.
This is what I see.
1). The “J” is consistent on all three
2). The “o” seems to have the standard double circle
3). The “o” connects to the “h” the same, but here is where I thought there could be a secretarial “fingerprint”. The ‘H’ in the second PSA John Wayne is much higher than the “h” in the letter and also the PSA has a wide loop in the handle of the h. However, after looking at about 25 other genuine Wayne signatures I noticed the smaller “h” without a loop on several including the second PSA signed photo at bottom of the below image. So back to square one.
4). The “n” in John has pretty solid consistency to the PSA signatures, though it does have an element of a subtle right tilt.
5). The “W” at first had a drastic left curve on top of the right wing, that extends beyond the first stroke/wing of the “W” . But, then I noticed the second PSA has a similar strong left curve in same spot. However, I did notice the “W” has a loop in the middle that the others didn’t have. Also, the drastic right wing curve has a bit of an "unnatural" look to it.
6). The rest of the “Wayne” are remarkably identical including very subtle characteristics such as the open top of the “a”, and the even height of the top pf the “y” to the top of the “n” and that very unique and subtle drop in the “ne” which is NOT evident in almost every Wayne secretarial signature I’ve seen.
Also, I believe based on the UACC late 80’s autopen study , that John Wayne did not apply for an autopen machine until 1978, which he would probably never use, because he was severely ill and passed away the following year.
Would like to hear your thoughts. What am I missing here?
Thanks ,
Kevin Conway
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by kevin conway on
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Louie,
I did make him an offer he accepted.
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Louie,
The same seller had from the same estate several other less significant letters and autographs that this Admiral collected. The only one of any desirability was the Wayne. The Admiral apparently was friends with Wayne and had an annual charity event that Wayne would often attend.
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Roger,
Can you get a better image? This a blurry even With my glasses...
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Permalink Reply by john reznikoff on
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Here is Herman Darvick's excellent blog on John Wayne . In my opinion it shows Steve Koschal may have knowingly sold non-authentic John Waynes autographs....no surprise to me and others. Some great comments by AA co-founder TM. I suppose that should get me a few more write-ups (lies) on the trash site. I understand from Mike Frost that SK is not even allowed to join the IADA, the organization he founded. wow.....John Wayne is the tip of SK's iceberg. He is in hiding avoiding being served by at least three and maybe five lawsuits!
http://live.autographmagazine.com/profiles/blogs/is-it-real?id=3524...
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My previous post I missed Herman's links. The photo is not even close. And the album is a secretarial.
John did you say that letter you posted in the blog was genuine ? Was that's PSA'd?
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Hi Kevin,
I am not sure it was PSA but assumed it was genuine. My expertise is more historical but am curious what others thought. Clearly everyone thought the two Koschal versions were secretarial even though a lot of money was being asked for them. Typical pot calling the kettle black. What are your thoughts as far as how the letter compares?
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John,
On that letter I think you said History Direct was selling my first impression was a secretarial because looks like a major breakdown on the last name. A whole lot of shakiness and like someone stopped or hesitated during the "Way" section. But, what I may be learning here, along with a number of discussions with lead authenticators, is PSA and maybe JSA have some kind of scoring system. For example, if 60 or 80% of the signature has consistency it passes. Just a guess though as I've never worked for any of them.
But, one thing I have discovered over the past 30 years of collecting. It is sometimes an unsettling subjective process. I have had dealers/"experts" tell me a signature was not likely genuine and six months later see it in their auction or catalog. I have had countless occasions when an authenticator gave a quick thumbs down to an autograph that had a very high score of consistency and then found myself debating with that same person on what I believe was an unquestionable secretarial or forgery. And, had an autograph turned down that I used that very dealer's auction to authenticate from , and that particular item along with the dealer's he sold were 100% signed by the SAME person.
I believe in 3rd party authentication because if nothing else it curtails the contamination of the industry , i.e. forgers operating un-policed and it is a very needed accountability system. On the other hand, I need to come up with a solution when on occasion , I am certain the professional authenticators are wrong.
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Kevin,
A great and balanced analysis. I applaud you and hope to hear more from you on this site. What is your pugs name!
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Hi John,
Buster. He's like one of the kids..maybe even more spoiled.;}
Kevin
P.S. Looking at the letter you posted in the blog (I was thinking more about it last night), I think it adds even more evidence that the letter I originally posted is indeed authentic. Other than, the shaky part of the "Way", the rest of it is dead on with my letter and the two PSA cert photos, for reasons any of us have concluded , i.e. letter spacing, height, very unique Wayne characteristics, etc etc. But, one more piece of evidence. The two letters were signed during different periods and different secretaries. Pat Stacy was only his secretary during his last 7 years. HIGHLY unlikely BOTH secretaries would have Identical Skill at perfectly duplicating his signature.
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Permalink Reply by Bob Shinn on
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Kevin...
I have been collecting Wayne for over 30 years.
Wayne Signature on letter right on as being authentic.
You have a winner there.....
Bob Shinn
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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on
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I can vouch for Bob. I should have thought of asking him earlier. I doubt anyone knows Wayne better.
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Thanks Bob,
I always value your opinion and expertise.
Kevin
P.S. What made it even nicer when I received it was it also came with "John Wayne" personal embossed envelop with the same date (as letter), Postal stamped November 3, 1976 . And, what great content, i.e. "I can't ask Frank Sinatra for another favor......"
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