Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by KarlKeaton on July 13, 2017 at 6:58pm

What I meant by 'flaw' was that you thought the signatures looked like copies of one set and then switched to another set that you thought looked even more similar; the idea of them being copied was already in your mind and you set out to prove it. At the same time it never crossed anybody's mind to see it as a reason to suspect either of the other two sets that are very similar (but not identical). You could well be right but do we really have enough evidence to reach that conclusion yet?

My only conclusion is that there was already some pre-existing suspicion in your mind about this set which might be for valid reasons but IMO the item does warrant the benefit of the doubt of an inspection by someone knowledgeable before everyone accepts that they are copied/printed/auto-penned.

Btw, I am not dismissive of the idea of items being faked in this way and I am convinced it will become more of a problem in the future.

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Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on July 13, 2017 at 7:28pm

I happened to find what I now believe is a second set of signatures that were derived from the signatures on the full set. There was no suspicion involved, as at least one of those two items clearly had to contain copies. Both can't be authentic. Had I found the full set first, it would have been the exact same situation. That is, both can't be authentic.

Keep in mind that the date given as provenance for the set in the OP is the exact date that the full set was signed. Is that just a coincidence? Also, apparently it was removed by eBay. 

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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on July 13, 2017 at 7:48pm

+1. I believe the OP and the pink are derived from the same full set. A such, one could easily point to the pink first - they appear to have the same origin.

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Permalink Reply by KarlKeaton on July 13, 2017 at 8:16pm

To quote BallroomDays67; "I was just told by the owner of the pink signed sleeve that I posted that it includes an LOA from Frank Caiazzo."

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Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on July 13, 2017 at 8:21pm

That's correct.

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Permalink Reply by KarlKeaton on July 13, 2017 at 8:40pm

I think that's where our views differ, I think that the variations in the signatures could well be natural, there's nothing that says to me that one of the sets 'had to' contain copies.

As for the date coincidence, maybe both sets were signed on that date?

I must admit that as the seller seems to have acquired items that are not genuine it might arouse suspicion, I just think that there's not enough evidence here with this particular set to proclaim it a copy based upon another set(s).

I think it would take a hands on inspection by someone knowledgeable to reach that conclusion.

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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on July 13, 2017 at 8:44pm

It is simply more likely the dates are questionable IMO.

For me, there is much too much direct correlation for these signatures to be independant. Why should that George and John be in the exact same relative sale? That is not easily explained away with the other similarities. Have you tried separating the first and last names, adjusting the placements and then looking again?

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Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on July 13, 2017 at 8:56pm

Agreed. Two of the Xs under George's signature appear to be a match as well.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on July 13, 2017 at 10:24am

They're not autopens in the traditional sense. The originals are scanned into Photoshop, Adobe Illustrator or some other program, and altered from there. Then they alter the shape of lines where they want to.

We don't really know all they do, and they're no doubt getting better all the time.

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Permalink Reply by Adam Halloran on July 13, 2017 at 2:12pm

So these wouldn't show pen pressure marks on the reverse?

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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on July 13, 2017 at 7:48pm

They might, some might.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on July 13, 2017 at 7:52pm

They would almost certainly show some impression in the paper, except perhaps if signed by a marker or certain felt tips. Whether it would go through to the other side, would depend on the pen, paper, pen pressure and what surface below the paper is. 

They're not printed, like a laser or inkjet.

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