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Charlton Heston - secretarials, variations & authentics (post 'em here)

This is the place for the discussion as to the follow-up for the secretarial study thread.

That thread; proposed;

The Theory
Photographs and other memorabilia sent to Mr. Heston's office were signed by a secretary. However, Mr. Heston did authentically sign books through-the-mail.

Real vs. Secretary
In authentic signatures, the R in "Charlton" is distinctly a lowercase "r" and less than half the height of the L. The first four letters are clearly "Char."

In secretarial signatures, the R looks much more like a lowercase "l" and is about the same height as the L. So, the first four letters appear to be "Chall."

and it seems to have merit. However, in looking at hundreds of Hestons of late there are many that fall into the above theory and yet quite a few variations that aren't so clean. There are no sacred cows in this thread but do keep it civil.

Bear in mind as you cascade thru the many examples below there are clearly some that fall into this, some that don't and an interesting variation.

Some commentors have been quick to point out that dealers and sellers of these items may have fallen into following a "bogus" exemplar. I will post Jan Schray's exemplars and the "secretarial" one touted here will be found in her 1997 exemplar book. Thus, without a date on COAs it's hard to tell when something was sold.

Cyrkin in the other thread opted to close it with a number of justifications; ... indisputable work. It's at risk of being adulterated by Hestons being presented as either genuine, out and out forgeries, or variations of known secretarials without the painstaking, focused research and consensus-building that made this study so valuable in the first place. That's beyond the scope of this discussion and is putting the study's clarity and integrity at risk.

I for one could not disagree with this rationale moreso. It is thru the posting of perceived hestons that either lends support, refutes or enhances the theory. I noticed the updates to the original blog include; I will note that, out a hundreds of exemplars, I found a handful of books that did not have a distinct "r" formation. My theory is these books may have been through-the-mail exemplars signed by a secretary. The reason for this could be that Mr. Heston's schedule did not allow for signing at that time or, once his illness took hold, secretaries began signing books through the mail as well as photos.

I've also noted this in same discussion with Zipper and there was a suspicion that other forgeries were apparent. it is the continued flow of questionable non-authentic items that gives strength to any theory. I'll attempt to capture the many examples before they are arbitrarily removed.

6/13/12 - Rules of the Thread;

R1 - stay on subject (don't care for moderated blogs but since owners of threads have little recourse to have comments removed at their discretion).

R2 - if you are going to post a link than at a MINIMUM post the picture of the item. The secretarial study thread has a number of links to non-existent photos. Esp Ebay ones as they have been removed by EBAY or no longer visible. If you don't know how then after you post the comment pm me and I'll capture the picture for posterity.

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by JXE on March 11, 2013 at 8:55am

What I also find interesting is that in that questionarre (I think--maybe it was somewhere else?) he said he was offered private signings but he never did them. The private signing with that ebay dealer must've been after that point, right?

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Permalink Reply by Rich on March 11, 2013 at 8:57am

Seems like it was - perhaps even later that same year.

That same seller also seems to be selling pics from the late-90's Roger Daltrey signing. I can't recall when/who conducted that one (Darren Prince maybe?), though I recall hearing about it an seeing some of the photos from it.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on March 11, 2013 at 8:59am

I guess it all depends on what he interpreted as a "private signing." Perhaps he didn't consider a signing for charity as a private signing.

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Permalink Reply by Brick Hunter on March 12, 2013 at 11:04am

He didn't really lie. He did sign items through the mail. Books and some letters. I haven't seen any authentic pictures signed through the mail, though. It would have made things a lot easier for autograph collectors if he'd made the distinction, but plenty of people don't understand the autograph/memorabilia craze and/or don't care for it. Autograph collectors are fortunate he signed as much as he did.

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Permalink Reply by Gatsby on March 23, 2013 at 1:39pm

are there any opinions on this baseball that is claimed to be signed by heston with the coa depicted? Does anyone have any similar examples of this type of signature variation as signing a BB is very different than an SP?

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Permalink Reply by Rick Meyer on March 23, 2013 at 3:21pm

I think it's good.

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Permalink Reply by Bob Shinn on March 23, 2013 at 4:57pm

Stay far far away from it.

Not even close to being an authentic example of a Heston Signature.

So many discrepancies in letter formation ,slant, speed and not because its on a baseball.

In my humble opinion this is a forgery

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Permalink Reply by Brick Hunter on March 23, 2013 at 6:20pm

I wouldn't say something with a PAAS cert is fake right off the bat, but it doesn't give me much confidence either. Looking at the signature, it would have to be late in life. But it seems to have more traits in common with the secretarial version of Heston's signature than his authentic signature. I'd stay away.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on March 24, 2013 at 9:10am

Here's one that I would consider highly suspect.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-GENUINE-certified-HAND-SIGNED-PHOTOGRA...

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Permalink Reply by Brick Hunter on March 25, 2013 at 2:14pm

The listing title is pretty funny, though, "CHARLTON HESTON - Hairy Chest". You can even get the letters for Char Hest out of hairy chest. Coincidence? Yes.

I think there is a small uptick in "Char" forgeries. We'll have to keep monitoring those. I'd say 85 or 95% of signed pictures I see at auction or on eBay are still "Chall" secretarials. It'll be interesting to see where the price of signed pictures are in five or ten years. Plenty of autographed books from various book signings, but there really doesn't seem to be a stockpile of signed pictures from his most iconic films as Moses (aside from the one Moses pose), Ben-Hur, and Taylor lying around. Finding a very nice one is really sort of rare. Jimmy Stewart you don't have to look too far because he signed his mail seemingly religiously. Tony Curtis rarely signed his mail but there are stacks and stacks out there of absolutely pristine authentic signed pictures bearing his name. That isn't true to the same extent with Heston, to my knowledge at least.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on March 26, 2013 at 4:17pm

The Hook,

Are you actually DB...Dennis Bishop?

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Permalink Reply by The Hook on March 25, 2013 at 4:43am

The one above was removed.

here was an interesting listed one that has since been removed from seller Sportscards. The COA would be from autographreference.com (notice it is not completely filled out). If u go to that website and click on the ebay store you will end up on this seller;

the authenticator is listed as; Bobby Poll is a life-long collector and dealer in autographs with over 20 years in the business. Starting at a young age, his fascination with signatures only grew over the years. As owner of SMA360 (DBA Autograph Reference), Bobby reviews thousands of autographed items on a daily basis and has focused on studying signatures over the past 10 years. He has produced and published several guides including "Signature Study of Baseball Hall of Famers" in 2010 - a 600 page guide is the most comprehensive signature guide and most recently, "50 Most Forged Sports Autographs" - a 344 page guide in 2012. Both of which are available in the Autograph Reference Store, on Amazon and eBay. Our Guarantee: Respect and quality is what you will receive with order or authentication.

& couldn't agree more with #2 below as Bobby Poll points out.