The Jackie Gleason Autograph Thread! Genuine examples from every period! Cavalcade of Secretarials! Saddleman, Spear and Marilyn Gleason!

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The October 27th, 2018 update is what should be seen here first so until the rewrite it is below:

PRESENTING! THE CULMINATION OF THIS PROJECT! FIRST TIME EVER?!

Jackie Gleason's secretarial signature sources (and 1 wife) BY NAME (where possible). The vast bulk of the secretarials out there will be by Spear from the later 1970's on to 1987 on anything in felt tip, usually black, and then Saddleman on the 1950's postcards in blue fountain ink most often. Forgeries are of course more common than anything. After those and the secretarials shown by name below, the signing secretarials are encountered (infrequently, fountain and often ballpoint, on portraits mostly), then Marilyn Gleason (ballpoint and perhaps 1 fountain pen so far C. 1970's,), and last...finally, The Great One (pencil, fountain (black and blue with some oddities in the late 1960's), ballpoint (usually blue), felt tip (black and blue) etc.).

"...And away we go!..."

Click for large image please.This image has been updated October 29, 2018 to show the largest examples clearly.

Photo reposted Oct. 30th, 2018. PM 10.29.18 Improved with better, larger scans, more accurate date windows and expanded to show a later Saddleman as well (!):

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And the "old" article, undergoing full revision follows...


Hello,

I thought this composite might be useful in identifying the rampant secretarials of Jackie Gleason's signature that are offered, both raw and certified. The topic has risen before, but I did not see this all laid out simply and clearly labeled. Gleason's authentic signature is very rare in any form. Almost everything out there is a secretarial or poor forgery, especially the 1970's signatures, although this is changing now (10/28/18) as the forgers attempt to create 1950's signatures. The comments below concern the scans above as shown.

The authentic example from 1951 shown is typical of this period, not terribly neat, sometimes slightly flowery if messy, and with a rather bouncy base line (especially early examples) in "jackie", which often appears as "jockie". Note the overall shape and slight lean of the "a" in Jockie" compared to the secretarials (much more round). Note the attack of the "jackie", the connection of the "j" to the "a", and the clear construction and articulation of the "k" (hooking back and under). Sometimes the "e" in "jackie" is a touch higher than the "i" and leans back a bit to the left. Also note the differences in the formation of the "g" in "gleason" with the 1950's secretarial (and the form of the "ason"). The "a" in "gleason" is often complex and dense as it goes back on itself. Ink dispersal shows a rather quick hand compared to all the secretarials, with most ink in the last "a". Authentic examples are very hard to find and rather expensive if identified. Very early examples show him singing both names in a single line, even almost connecting first and last names, but then he started signing on two lines by C. 1949. Gleason's signature remained more or less the same, sometimes taking on a more extreme slant, until the early 1960's, after which it became a bit more scrawled and often more simplified. Most authentic examples appear to come from the 1950's and are often found on album pages; examples from the 1960's can be found on playbills and theater programs as well as other items. From what little I have seen, most all later examples (mid 1970's and on) exhibit more variation and extreme simplification in the last years and are seldom encountered. They should be priced accordingly.

The 1950's secretarials are easily spotted by an overall drawn quality, extreme neatness, straight baseline, even ink dispersal/pressure, and the very similar "j" and "g" bottom loops. Do not ignore this. The formation of the letters in first and last names is very different - the first "a" is often quite round, and the "ason" in "gleason" is quite different from the authentic (see the elongated space between the "a" and "s" in the secretarial) and is always legible (true of most all secretarials), with no ending trail off that melds the final letters. This is important. Early examples can show an elongated thinner "j" (now added in a composite scan posted below), but are readily betrayed by the rest of the signature which displays hesitance and the drawn quality and form. These 3.5" x 5" secretarials exist in quantity, yet I believe are still quite collectible as period items - if you wrote to the Jackie Gleason Show during the 1950's this is indeed what you would have received. Very few if any of these bear authentic signatures. They were usually signed by secretary Patricia Saddleman, who admitted to signing all of his mail at the time on a broadcast (1956) of What's My Line.

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The 1960's secretarials are even more obvious with very even ink dispersal, a very different overall slant compared to either the authentic or earlier secretarials, a straight base line, a different formation overall and of the last name in particular. The "j" in "jackie" is not connected to the "a" as the authentic. The capitalized "E" in "glEason" first appears about C. 1959 on the earlier C. 1954 PC's images, many times from the same source but I digress. They bear ballpoint signatures that appear much like the 1960's version(s). Several examples exist with the capital "E" ALL c. 1959/60, so that one can distinguish the forged from the secretarial apart from the other problems. Note the opposing slants of the "j" and "k" in "jackie" compared with the authentic example - same holds true for the 1970's and 1980's. These 3.5" x 5" secretarials with the "E" do not show up as frequently as the earlier 1950's 3.5" x 5" secretarials which are comparatively common. There is another scarcer 3.5" x 5" early 1960's (Perhaps 1963) version showing Gleason on stage in front of curtains with a raised arm - I have seen this version bear the shown 1960's secretarial signatures (not all with "E") and, very rarely, a genuine signature. If my memory serves, I have seen a very few stamped versions of just the standing pose from Miami.

The 1970's secretarials, as those of the 1980's, are also very neat and exhibit very consistent ink dispersal even if more fluidly executed. These later secretarials are usually accompanied with the inscription "My Best Wishes" and a "dash" "-"; and display a slant to the right, posses a readily identifiable "j", and the "k" is formed very much like the "i" and "e" - with all reaching the same height. There is usually a space before and/or after the "a" in "jackie" (lone "a"),and often a space before the "a" in "gleason". The last name appears to be broken into two or three segments. There can be some variation of the "g" (thinner bottom loop, angular tipped) but the rest of the signature will quickly confirm the secretarial (the "j", which sometimes has a loop at the top and a slightly varying flourish, and then the "g"). These secretarials are extremely common, generally accepted as genuine, and are usually seen on 8" x 10" cast signed bus photographs (with the rest often authentic), fan letters, personal portraits and, later, 5" x 7" portraits. The signature is almost always in black felt tip without regard to what the item is; this allows ready examination of the ink and pressure changes which will reveal the secretarial. The presence of a "dash" is problematic -  limited to secretarials only - perhaps Marilyn  - I have yet to see a genuine example with a "dash".

Below is another authentic vintage signature - a superb example in pencil that dates to shortly after the 1951 example above. It is a wonderful example of the true signature of The Great One.

Additional authentic signatures from 1944 to 1961 can be see here (the 1948 example is very useful, but they all are of great value in this discussion), as well as a confirmed common secretarial from the 1970's:

Jackie Gleason Confirmed Authentic Exemplars at The Classic Enterta...

Note: If you have an authentic Gleason signature or another type of secretarial from any period and would like to share it for the purposes of this article please contact me. Member Bob Shinn also has a superb example, but I wont post images w/o permission.

Eric

A large scan of the 1951 has been added as an attachment below.

Closing notes: It is sometimes said that Gleason's wife signed for him. She did! Marilyn Gleason, starting early, in about 1965. Gleason was married 1936-1970, 1970-1975, and 1975-1987. From what I have seen the "My Best Wishes" secretarials, which represent the overwhelming majority of signatures, start to appear on photographs from about 1975 on. The presence of this inscription does not equate with being a secretarial, but this is often the case. I also note the lack of any transitional examples of the secretarials. The little I have seen appears forged or unusual in some odd way. His authentic signature mutated slightly over the years while retaining basic elements, yet the secretarials just change violently. I have never seen the 1960's style secretarial signature shown in the composite above, whose appearance seems to correlate with his move to Miami in 1962, on anything but these small photographs from this period.

This article is under construction. Updated October 26, 2018 with much additional information and a new scan showing the most encountered secretarial signatures with the names of those who signed them along with Marilyn Gleason. © EKL 2018

Tags: Gleason, Jackie, autograph, forgery, genuine, secretarial

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  • With the terrible example on ebay right now, I have a question.  Any authentic Gleason's done in sharpie?

None I am aware of. His last PA, Sydell Spear, signed all his 1970's and 80's mail. She used black felt tip. The very few, a handful, of authentic signatures from the 70's are signed in steel tip, ballpoint and are sometimes purple or blue ink/steel tip.

There is not one single authentic Gleason on eBay (as usual) - apart from the contracts. Sydell Spear can quickly be identified - signature aside, when you see "To XXXX" (upper left) and "My very best wishes - jackie gleason" of the right side. - that's Spear. That dash - never saw anyone but Spear add the dash. Never saw an authentic Gleason with a dash. I don't know which "Gleason" you saw but all are bad (apart from the contracts). Are you looking for a Gleason? What is your budget?

Not that I have seen. 1970 on was felt tip or ballpoint and nearly all by Sydell Spear.

Photo

Attachments: No photo uploads here

Hi, I will render my Opinion, a full Quaility Assesment and the Opportunity to ask questions for $12.

Opinions by Eric

Hi Jeffrey -

Your two questions have two different answers.

To the question of can Fanatics be trusted?  The short answer to that is "yes"...they are a legit company.  You can read about them in the archived messages here.

However....

This is a secretarial which is the case of most Jackie Gleason autographs on the market (along with downright forgeries).  I haven't really mentioned it here but a dealer friend and I did a deep dive study together on Mr. Gleason's autographs a few years ago.  We learned a lot together (I learned at the time that I had a bad one... but appreciated the lesson).

I wouldn't fault Fanatics too much as these secretarials have been accepted in the hobby for many years.

Perhaps others will share here as well with their experience with Mr. Gleason's signing history.

Hi Etienne,

The secretarials have been known for 10 years (if not by name, signing dates and styles). Did your study find anything that is not in this thread? If so, please do add it! :-) 

Eric -

With all due respect, I don't think we can say in a blanket way that the secretarials have been known for 10 years.  Yes, they have been known by some who have closely analyzed his signing habits (or lack thereof..lol).  However, many dealers and auction houses have been offering secretarials over the years right up to the present day. I tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the honest sellers since the secretarials have been broadly accepted as authentic for years.

In the last year, I had a very well respected dealer who is 100% honest offer me a Jackie Gleason via email because they knew I have some interest in him.  It was 1970's secretarial and this dealer would never have thought about offering it if they had been aware it was.  I said to them don't take my word for it only.  They then studied it more closely, spoke our mutual dealer friend I had earlier studied with ..... and then pulled it.  I respect them for that. 

Heck, if you remember, I even had another secretarial that an image was sent to me of in the last month that I forwarded to you.

There are threads about them dating back to 2011 on this very site. Possibly earlier. The "Is it Real" site was older I think. The secretarials will not be accepted anymore. PSA won't pass them, BAS and JSA are also doing much, much better at earlier Gleason's especially in the last few years.

I appreciate the fact that there has been ongoing discussion here, but not everyone in the hobby / trade reads this site much less have come across an occasional thread about Jackie Gleason.  If the Fanatics piece was authenticated in the last ten years, I'd say they weren't aware.  The dealer I mentioned certainly wasn't...and he's tops in the hobby.

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