Authenticity is Everything
Liza Minnelli Autopen - Kids, Wait Till You Hear This!
Starting this separate thread to track the Liza Minnelli autopen situation.
Signed copies of her new book, Kids Wait Till You Hear This!, include autopen signatures.
You may also visit the original Liza Minnelli thread, established when the book was announced, to read about the initial development of this issue:
https://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/liza-minelli-kids-w...
Feel free to post your examples or any info on the return situation.
Overlay Video 1 (click title to play video)
Note how “Liza” matches up (click title)
-First round, note how the “Love” appears to overlay nearly exactly
-Second round, the circle of the smiley face appears to overlap closely, and the L is starting to line up as well
-Third round, the Z and the A in “Liza” appear to lineup closely.
Notice how almost all of the smiley face lines up on this one
-With a slight adjustment, notice how the Z and the A start to align as well
Watch the top of the smiley face. All I am doing is bringing the circle of the smiley face into line. Watch how the Z falls into place. Watch how the top loop of the L falls into place. The “A” is a little off and also the “I” but you can see how they seem to be off by a very small and consistent distance.
Watch how the “OVE” lines up exactly on two examples received by the same person
Notice where “Love” is lining up on these and how much of Liza lines up with a slight shift
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Some of the segments are individually lining up….yet the two signatures appear different on face and when overlaid as a whole.
Example:
First, notice how the L lines up in “Love”:
Make a slight adjustment that then brings the “ove” into line:
Slightly adjust again to bring the L of “Liza” into line:
Slightly adjust again to bring the Z and A into alignment (also notice the “I” and the comma):
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It appears that the autopen signatures in these books were generated by an advanced autopen machine that can produce subtle variations in letter structure and placement that would disguise the use of autopen. Please see this video to learn more on how this works:
A thread has also been created to make others aware of this type of autopen usage and discuss if interested:
https://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/beware-of-the-new-a...
Tags: Autopen, Hear, Kids, Liza, Minnelli, This!, Till, Wait, You
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by JIMMY JAMES
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+1
A very big +1
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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin
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Check out Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle autographs.
Some people are unusually consistent signers, some having even 90-ish% similar real autographs during sitdown signatures during the same time period, same health. Consistent characteristics.
Mickey Mantle and Babe Ruth are prime examples of that.
Ruth's was AMAZING. He'd sign baseballs in person for a group of fans and they almost looked identical. We have a magazine cover with Ruth sitting on a sofa and signing hundreds of balls.
Mantle, Joe DiMaggio and Ted Williams were all quite consistent during paid signings.
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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo
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I wish I could add more to this. I no longer have "transparency/overlay" programs.
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Permalink Reply by Jason H
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Here is Babe Ruth up close, both from index cards, both PSA authenticated. (take what you will from that)
This is just comparing 2 examples sure, but this is how a human writes. There will always be slight variations within the signature. It's impossible for a human to be as exact as Liza within Matt M.'s examples posted.
Please follow along as I match up each letter. Pause if you must and study the variations. now pull up Matt's example and see how much of Liza matches perfectly compared to Babe Ruth.
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I feel the need to go back to basics. lets take someone who, if the numbers are true, has signed over 100k each for multiple releases. Taylor Swift. She could easily have over 1 million signatures total floating around
here is a video of one taken in the style of Matt M. to show what we should expect between signatures written thousands of times in one setting
In the first section, notice the large upper loop of the T. there are sections that line up which you would expect, but it is not the entire T
Here, the bottom loop has a variation even when matched up. this is very normal with a regular signature from a human no matter how robotic they train themselves to be
I dont know what section you would call this. The area that represents between her Y and E.. It matches up almost perfect but the top of the "hill" still deviates ever so slightly before getting back on track
Now the "er" is completely different
Overall the length is very similar. Areas inside are not identical, nor should she be.. why? because whoever signed this was human
Now go back to examples of Liza.. ok, Steve just mentioned about how others may be able to maintain exactness between signatures.. I will take this into consideration but I dont believe it in this case. Liza has never shown this trait. so why now when shes 80?
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Permalink Reply by Marcus Green
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Although I'm picking up my copy tomorrow and am more regarding this as a curiosity I am very interested in the technology that could have been used.
A quick google found this machine which is even advertised as "signature files can be easily changed or updated. Both pen pressure and speed can be varied."
This is the first example of a machine I've found which renders it all but impossible to differentiate between original and autopen. They even advertise it for signing sports memorabilia.IF this is what has been used then it's basically game over for author signed books.
https://damilic.com/autopen-products/office-signature-machines
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Marcus,
I've seen that machine. It's not hard to tell it's an autopen signature. Here's an example of it signing: https://damilic.com/autopen-video/atlantic-video
Look at the pen movements. If they're signed by a writing instrument, they need to move like a human to sign like a human.
They showed the machine signing but didn't show the autograph it signed.
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Steve, I admit when you see the performance and imagine it trying to sign a football jersey or baseball, you wonder what the results are. As you highlight, they don't show the actual signature in that video. You can still see the strong temptation to use it.
Bring back the publishers conference room with 2 tables and an unlimited supply of coffee for the author as they sign away.
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What Matt M. has so graciously taken on with this Liza debacle, is akin to an Employer/Job Interview/Assessment task many of us may have had to do at one time.(Stay tuned and read to the end to get my point here.)This task is most commonly referred to as shape sorting, shape matching, or sorting tasks.Key Aspects of the Task:Purpose:To develop or evaluate fine motor skills, visual discrimination, and independence.
- The Process: The worker takes plastic shapes (e.g., cubes, spheres, cones) and matches them to corresponding holes or compartments in a box.
- Variations: The task might involve color-coding, sorting by shape, or fitting complex pieces into a specific layout.
- Now here's my point in all of this.
- EVERY TIME and ANY TIME that Matt M. discovers and demonstrates an EXACT overlay match between ANY two individual/separate exemplar's autograph components and spacing...Ipso Facto, THAT LIZA autograph is now deemed GARBAGE, FRAUD, AUTOPEN, whatever name you want to call it. Period. End of Discussion. JJ
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Permalink Reply by Matt M.
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Lol thanks JJ, I appreciate that.
So I’m still working with yours. I’m currently overlaying it with Kalokbe789’s who posted theirs earlier this in the thread.One thing I’ve noticed when overlapping these is the circle of the smiley face. Sometimes when you align that part, the lines of the signatures sometimes start becoming strikingly parallel. The circle itself doesn’t always match perfectly, and the dots inside the circle are usually a little off, but the outer shape sometimes starts to line up, at the same time as other lines.
In this example, all of the smiley face overlaps very closely.
Once that part lines up, a lot of the surrounding lines start running nearly parallel, with the signature offset just slightly, almost like a mirror of itself.
It doesn’t overlap completely as a whole. There are differences between the two signatures when you look at them normally. But those differences appear fairly minor, and it makes me wonder whether something like advanced autopen technology could account for that kind of small variation.
I’m not saying this is definitive of anything. I’m just putting it out there for JJ and those that are curious..
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