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Permalink Reply by Woody2Shoes on August 10, 2017 at 8:04am

Maybe he wasn't looking for the menu. Maybe he was looking for artifacts that a Beatle could have signed. Bought the artifact and then forged it, holding the pen closer to the opposite end than towards the tip, as is normal, giving it this airy, open, large effect. This is a very common MO, reverse engineering for some forgers. Much like looking for vintage baseballs, menus, programs, claim checks, etc., etc., that match placing a particular target near a certain place near a certain time. This is done by forgers more routinely than is expected.

Using ebay and multiple accounts, the owner could have very well seen this, googled, and the rest is history. There's hundreds of pieces on ebay right now that could conceivably crossover to the Beatles or one of the Beatles being associated with it. Try it for fun. Start looking for old postcards, old playbills, old menus, note the date and place and who could have been there to sign it. You'll find thousands of pieces. An old score card from a gold course Ruth was near or at that week, for example. Done all the time. Ebay provides scads of fodder for forgers. I've seen the before and the after! Sometimes they're smart about their choices, but not smart enough to wait 3 months until that listing or picture is removed by ebay or the seller! I've seen pieces sold on ebay offered weeks later but with added signatures, sometimes even signed by the long dead. SMH.

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Permalink Reply by KarlKeaton on August 10, 2017 at 8:43am

So you think it's fake?

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Permalink Reply by Woody2Shoes on August 10, 2017 at 9:43am

I didn't say that. Because it's so large, I don't know how anyone could tell for sure, just going by the signature itself. What I'm inferring is that it's do-able, from the forging standpoint of finding a menu and forging Harrison on it. And it didn't have to happen in that order. Which is why I say "reverse-engineering" forgery.

This type of forger not only has a good knowledge of a target's signature tendencies at different times, but where he was, the target's history of travel.

You're tooling around ebay, looking for items that one your targets could have signed. Elvis, Beatles, Monroe, Ruth, Gehrig, George Washington for that matter, all signatures of value where they're time/cost effective. You see this ship's menu and you think, "ah-ha. Wasn't one of the Beatles on or near this ship around this time", and then you go to work. Research and development for forgery. This is a smart forger who knows that the back story, and seeming proof of it, is important, for more gain and for convincing authenticity.

That's all I'm saying. That it's doable, and the fact that this signature is on a menu that any one of a thousand people or more could have handled or procured on ebay or elsewhere decades later.

In that case, I would need to see the paper and ink in hand. Paper and ink tell as important a story as the back story and the signatures themselves, in some cases even a more important story.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on August 10, 2017 at 11:41am

There was a famous forger of Bob Dylan autographs who was caught by Jeff Gold of Record Mecca because he would buy unsigned items on eBay to forge.

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Permalink Reply by Woody2Shoes on August 10, 2017 at 11:52am

That's the MO of the typical forger. Buy 20, $2.00, pre 1980 cards or pictures of Munson on ebay, sign them all, keep the best ones, shred the rest. Movie posters for full cast forgeries, etc., etc., the same thing. Typical. The untypical and smarter guy will search out pieces that are not just normal production, but material that is semi-unique. Like this ship's menu typical only to that cruiselines, or that ship, near that date that can be proven a signor was near or there. Make a much more convincing piece if you can forge Dylan on a ticket stub or program from one of his concerts. Or on a book he was at a signing or other even promoting, etc., etc., with google, very easy to do that research in an instant.

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Permalink Reply by sling on August 10, 2017 at 2:48pm

And to give Jeff more credit, Dylan stayed with the family of this forger Mkenzie and left many things there.  So he was selling alot of real Dylan stuff-until he ran out and started forging things

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Permalink Reply by Paul on August 10, 2017 at 10:21pm

Jeff sued one person for selling him forged Dylan graphs. The future will bring out a number of forgers when Dylan passes away.

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Permalink Reply by Jim Cushman on August 10, 2017 at 2:58pm

Usually the story is meant to sell the item...most of the time, the story is BS.The thing is...the signature that you're buying is either real....or fake!...

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Permalink Reply by KarlKeaton on August 10, 2017 at 7:28pm

Yes Jim, an autograph is either real or it isn't. In this case, if the signature is genuine then I think there's something a bit fundamentally 'wrong' with using it to illustrate the many methods that can be used by forgers to create forgeries.

I personally feel that the discussion has 'swerved' the fundamental question of is it genuine or not? I think that virtually everybody except the OP who has expressed an opinion as to the items authenticity has said they think it is likely genuine. Now concensus doesn't make it so but I do wonder what is the point of asking for thoughts or opinions on something if you are just going to offer resistance to any opinion that differs to your own?

The OP is perfectly entitled to disregard or not value the opinions of individuals but I really think all this talk of how the item might have been forged a bit, well, premature and unfair. I really can't see how it is so unfeasible for a menu that is 6-20 odd days old would be around long enough to be signed but totally feasible that it would be around for possibly decades before being used for fraudulent purposes?

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Permalink Reply by Woody2Shoes on August 10, 2017 at 9:17pm

Karl, many will be sold on the item based more on the evidentiary strength of the piece it's signed on. Since the piece is from a location at a time when George was purported to be there, it's prudent to mention that isn't the be all, end all. Many uninitiated seeking help here have no idea as to the lengths a forger will go to create then sell a convincing forgery. If they stay in the $1000 range and can knock one out even every two days, that's $180,000 per year worth of fraud and it's good for all hobbyists to be aware and wary of fraud, which being rampant in this field, its awareness is an asset, in my estimation and is appropriate to mention in this forum.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on August 10, 2017 at 9:36am

You're right about forgers finding all sorts of artifacts and memorabilia to forge an autograph on, Woody. I do think the piece is very likely genuine, though. 

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Permalink Reply by Woody2Shoes on August 10, 2017 at 9:52am

It likely is. And I'm reluctant to mention that modus operandi, Steve, for fear of opening an avenue for those that haven't thought of going that route to take their forgeries to another level. But I think it's important to mention it here as food for thought. To always consider that type of potential for fraud.  The fact that a signor was there, or in proximity to the material that bears the signature, in and of itself, is not absolute proof that the autograph is authentic. Even in those circumstances, buyer beware.

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