Comment by Chad B on March 2, 2011 at 5:34am

Truman Lewis has a good post and makes me consider a very good point. It is impossible for a third party, no matter how good and ethical, to be accurate with all signatures. The rushed signature is an appropriate example of this.  The celebrity walking to their car while talking to someone and signing an auto for another does not produce a signature matching their exemplar.  How can you authenticate this non-conforming but authentic signature?

We are all a part of an imperfect hobby.

Comment by kevin on March 2, 2011 at 11:37pm

Here in the UK we have a body called AFTAL who are expert autograph collectors/dealers and monitor sites such as Ebay all the time, however to become an official AFTAL member and become a registered dealer you have to pay £100.00 and have some of your items authenticated.

Once registered you are issued with an AFTAL number to add to your item for sale any problems from there on you contact AFTAL whom not only get you a refund but strike off the guy from the register and place him in a blackbook list which people can read.

This idea was come about by a guy who ran collectors fairs both in the UK and USA.

They do have a website if you wish to find out more hope this helps guys and happy collecting

Comment by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on March 2, 2011 at 11:44pm

Kevin...I agree with you. AFTAL is an excellent organization and is very careful about the dealers they approve and takes selling forgeries seriously. They could serve as an excellent example of how things should run here in the US.

Comment by Patrick Coughlin on March 3, 2011 at 10:11am

In theory, it sounds like a good idea.  However, it will never be 100%.  Like Kevin said, it costs money to join AFTAL.  I buy and sell autographs, I can tell you at this point I would have no interest in paying a fee of $10,000 to join such an organization.  I run a vey small operation, it is not my main business or source of income.  Does that make my items less legitimate?  I understand if a potential customer doesn't have the same confidence in my items as the larger dealers, but that is why I have to sell for a cheaper price. 

 

When I buy something, if it doesn't have a COA from a reputable dealer, or some other kind of proof such as a picture of the athlete signing or the athlete with the person from whom I am buying, then I am not willing to pay as much for the item.  Those items I will then take to JSA to get authenticated.  If it is passes, I will try to sell.  If it fails, I eat the item.  A risk I take. 

 

Is it possible I sold an item that JSA deemed real on which they made a mistake?  Yes, but I explain to my customers who JSA is and that it is not an exact science and mistakes are made.  From there it is up to them if they want to trust me and trust JSA. 

 

Some people do not trust JSA, some do not trust PSA/DNA some trust all of them, some do not trust anyone.  I think it is up to each individual dealer/customer to determine who it is they trust.  A Board of Gurus can be just as crooked as some of the authenticators that have been discussed on here that pass everything they see.

Comment by Bill Panagopulos on March 3, 2011 at 5:30pm

You know, Steve, these are brilliant questions.

Faith in the third party authentication system has, in my opinion, gone largely down the tubes. Personally, Alexander Autographs will not accept a condemnation of any of its pieces by PSA nor Jim Spence, tho' I respect their abilities in certain fields. But, you cannot be all things to all people. And their failure to respond to queries on this website alone speaks volumes.

But...a website, monitored by the best names in the business and charging a fee, with dealers/auctioneers being paid for their services for authentication, would go far. It would not be publicly held, it would only authenticate autographs, and a scheme can be devised to pay those who do the most work.

Dealers would get a certain break depending on their expertise, and authentication would be done by consensus. This, of course, would require a wide membership.

Imagine a base of 30-40 competent dealers versus 4-5 dealers looking at scans in their spare time who are, as they claim, paid nothing to authenticate auction submissions. What the hell—admissions could (and should) be made anonymously just to keep the process entirely clean and up-front.

This entire industry is rapidly sinking into a giant Porto-San. In the coming years, my firm is moving strongly into military autographs and "hard goods", where the competition with the unsophisticated forgers is much slimmer. It is up to my present colleagues in the hobby (and business) that I love so much to save their necks from the assault they are facing from all quarters. And if they don't see it, they're dead already.

Comment by CJCollector on March 3, 2011 at 6:58pm

If I go a little off track here and become long winded I apologize in advance.  

I think constructing an organization similar to AFTAL would not only be difficult to organize but even more difficult to maintain.   There are a ton of problems when it comes to autographs in the hobby; we all know that.   In my opinion the majority of autographs bought and sold are forgeries and those forgeries are  purchased by people who know nothing about autographs.   And therein lies the problem.  How do we get those people to read forums like this?  How does a guy like Ted Taylor get the title of "authenticator?"  Those people who buy forgeries don't do one iota of research.  How do we reach those people?  How do we instill common sense in those people?  Those people have helped to ruin the hobby.  I've always believed (and I will never back off on this statement) that people who purchase forgeries are fifty-percent of the problem.   Those are the people we have to reach.  One of the responsibilities of an organization similar to AFTAL would be to advertise the goals of our organization and that cost money; a lot of money.  Where is that money going to come from?  One of the main goals of the organization would be to explain the pitfalls of autograph collecting.   One of them being "If it's too good to be true...."   Also, if such an organization were to be constructed how do we keep everyone's ego in check?   Major funding would be needed to do what needs to be done.    The one thing we have to understand also, is that there are certain "authenticators (and I use that word loosely)" who take advantage of their so-called titles to persuade people that they are knowledgeable about autographs.  How does a person like Ted Taylor (who I have infinite disdain for), who with Jeff Stevens, made a decision to become an "authenticator" as opposed to running a hot dog stand, be taken seriously?   Because he's only taken seriously by those who don't know autographs and that's the type of information the new organization must not be afraid to air.  It's people like Ted Taylor that must be openly challenged.  You might ask "Challenged in what way?"  We all want to see Ted Taylor's library of exemplars that he uses to "authenticate" autographs.  That's what we want to see.  This organization has to hard-charging and hard-hitting.  It is the only way change can happen and to reach the population of autograph collectors (those who purchase forgeries on a continuous basis) who will never read forums and websites like this one.  I will stop here (although I want to write at least 500 more words on this subject).  I hope everyone understands where I am going here.  I want change as much as anyone.  Not for me, but for the hobby and for the plain simply fact that what goes on in the hobby is wrong because it is fraud.   If there were actual penalties for people who intentionally commit fraud then maybe would could slow the fraud down.  But if a seller of forgeries on Ebay gets caught their only penalty is suspension and then a week later they are back.  There was a major seller of autographed guitars on Ebay a few years back.  He was finally booted off Ebay.  Before he was booted off Ebay he had sold $750,000 worth of forgeries.  And his penalty was suspension from Ebay.  By the way, that seller now has a website where they sell the same garbage.  Okay, now I'll stop, but one comment.  This organization, if constructed, cannot be passive.  It's all well and good to have knowledgeable people within this organization, but it cannot succeed without confronting "the bad."

Comment by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on March 3, 2011 at 10:00pm

Patrick,

Kevin said the fee to be a dealer is £100, which is about $160...so that's not bad. But I'm not necessarily thinking about a board that charges an annual fee. I'm thinking of a executive authentication expert boards that actually render opinions in their areas of specialty for a per item fee. Anyone could use it as long as they pay the authentication cost.

 

Comment by kevin on March 3, 2011 at 11:35pm

I have recently done an extensive search on the web to see if any site or sites existed with photographs of signatures dedicated solely to collector and run by collectors but no luck.

Would it not be an idea and maybe whoever runs it can then use an authenticator to double check if required for a fee?.

I find the best people to approach are the auctioneers of such items.people whom are dedicated just to autographs Sotheby,s in London for example do authenticate for a fee.

just an idea and i agree with all your comments to setup and run an organisational body would be costly and time consuming but a website run by guys like yourselves not so bad.

 

Comment by Truman Lewis on March 4, 2011 at 9:56pm

Good comments Christopher, I see the same old problem coming up again and again - MONEY, non of us want to spend it, even if it would make us more money - just human nature, and in this downward spiraling economy, I think we we all see less spending (one of the reasons the don't publish a print issue any longer - RIP) and the other thing I see is that it will be "To many chiefs and not enough indians" as always. And Chris -- it was long winded, but good.

THX

Comment by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on March 4, 2011 at 10:36pm

Daniel...I have to tell you, from my observation, AFTAL is anything but a good ol boys club. I'm really impressed with them.

I don't think that setting up something that works will be unreasonably expensive.

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