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Mantle Difficulty

I've been a collector nearly 30 years. As a Police Officer, I incorporated my hobby in to my work, and studied Forensic Handwriting Analysis. I came across this Mantle, and it caught my eye. I noticed several key similarities, and only a few irregularities at glance. Upon comparison, and under magnification, I see no irregularities in the flow. I find no irregular impression points. Nor, do I see any dragging in the flow of the pen. I've had several Mantle collectors say it is a fake.

Needing more insight, I hired Richard Simon to offer his opinion. As well respected as Richard is on Yankee items, I trust his opinion. He deemed it good. A friend who works at the FBI Crime Lab with Forensic Handwriting, also viewed the signature, and agreed it is good.

That said, there should be little question as to the findings. Thoughts?

I will post photos of the ball, and my comparison exemplars from various years.

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Permalink Reply by CJCollector on December 26, 2017 at 1:43pm

Okay, maybe not "thrown in our face," but the mere mention of Forensics with autographs makes my blood boil.

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Permalink Reply by goodcat on December 26, 2017 at 1:50pm

I was told awhile ago that "forensics" is a touchy subject here and I guess it's true what I was told. IMO, Matt did NOT throw it in our faces in any way. I've been following this thread because it's very interesting and cool.

I can't understand why people get in a huff as I do know a retired forensic signature expert who is actually volunteering his services to keep an eye on forgeries (ie...ebay) for a particular celebrity who wishes his signature protected.

I'm a fan of forensics and don't think I could be swayed otherwise.

This "was" a healthy discussion until now.

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Permalink Reply by CJCollector on December 26, 2017 at 2:13pm

Goodcat53, I did back off on my "thrown in our faces" comment; I got a bit emotional.

But I'm not going to apologize for being emotional about autographs and my passion for them and the deep disdain I have for "Forensic" people like Rocchi, Morales, Drew Max, etc.

As for forensics and autographs, I don't know one forensic person who knows autographs.

I found the OP's "Mantle" on Ebay under "Sold Auctions." If that was an authentic Mantle on a Budig baseball, that would have sold for over 10X the final bid price.

I do get in a "huff" because of my passion for the autograph hobby. I wish we didn't have to discuss forgeries all of the time, but unfortunately it's an embedded part of the hobby now.

We've had to deal with the likes of Burczyk, Drew Max, Morales, Rocchi, etc.

All "Forensic" people.

I will continue to be passionate and emotional about our autograph hobby.

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Permalink Reply by Matt Cordoves on December 26, 2017 at 1:43pm

In my profession, forensic handwriting analysis is a useful tool for the investigations of check fraud, bank fraud, insurance fraud, document forgery, etc. Those who conduct these types of investigations, look for comparisons in signatures most often. An autograph, is a signature and the same rules apply to differences in style of handwriting, deception in handwriting, etc..

I understand and respect your opinion.

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Permalink Reply by Rick Meyer on December 26, 2017 at 6:09pm

Yeah forensics it is useful in helping with check fraud and such. In cases like those they are usually examining bad checks or documents forged by folks who are not experts in forgery. Many times those signatures do not appear close to those whose names have been forged. Collectible autograph forgery is another animal entirely.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on December 26, 2017 at 1:25pm

Matt,

We don't close discussions here as a rule because there's often so much that can be learned, so it's reopened. You don't have to participate if you don't want to.

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Permalink Reply by Matt Cordoves on December 26, 2017 at 1:28pm

Oh Ok! I did so since the conversation seemed to have concluded and I didn't continue to receive alerts on my phone. Thanks!

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on December 26, 2017 at 1:34pm

We don't have all the rules posted, sorry! You can stop following the discussion if you'd like. Just click "Stop Following" under the reply box right below your original post.

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Permalink Reply by Danny Francis on December 26, 2017 at 1:33pm

Thanks for keeping it open. Being less than a novice I am trying to learn from all of you.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Charnick on December 26, 2017 at 2:09pm

It has been, and should continue to be a good discussion, even if get a little off track and onto the "forensics" portion. It needs to be noted to Matt and others who might just be getting into autographs (either as a hobby or an investment) that our little niche of "power users" here if you will take great umbrage to the term because of those who have come before and sullied what it means. If the older, infamous "forensic document examiners" like Morales, Frangiapani and others came out of the shoot with legitimate certs and good ol' fashioned real work, it might be a different landscape, but after 25+ years of FDE being synonymous with bad certs, forgeries, and other straight up criminal activity, the fact remains that anyone who claims to be one, immediately shoots himself in the foot when trying to discuss the topics of the day. It's perhaps why we're all a little on edge about the subject, and while I give Matt the benefit of the doubt in this instance, I urge him to do more research on the scumbag FDE's in our hobby, hopefully coming to understand why he shouldn't want to align himself with those people under any circumstance.

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Permalink Reply by CJCollector on December 26, 2017 at 2:14pm

Jason, well written and thank you.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Charnick on December 26, 2017 at 2:19pm

I feel you, Chris! So frustrating! Not only have these "FDE's" ruined our beloved hobby, but they've ruined their entire field of study as well for those who come after them! If I was an attorney cross-examining a FDE in a non-autograph related case, I'd EASILY impugn any "expert" testimony by undermining the entire process with a stack of trash certs from our aforementioned "celebrity" FDE's!