Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on August 16, 2018 at 7:18am

100% sure-fire fakes.

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Permalink Reply by Ezra Spurlock on August 16, 2018 at 7:30am

Steve,

Can you cite a source, or a reference?

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Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on August 16, 2018 at 7:39am

Sources:

* Years of experience and study :-)

* One of many threads detailing these common mass-produced fakes

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Permalink Reply by Big Bad John on August 16, 2018 at 8:18am

Awful forgeries.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on August 16, 2018 at 8:28am

Do you own it? If so, see if it's on a regular photo or an inkjet printed photo. All the ones I've seen in this style are inkjet photos. Desktop inkjet photo paper came out in 1995, within a month of Mantle's death. He could have only signed a few, if any.

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Permalink Reply by Ezra Spurlock on August 16, 2018 at 8:54am

steve,

Yes it is on photo stock. I can also tell it was live signed, but by who for certain, is the question. I have compared various PSA and JSA certified signatures identical to these two, not the same photo, but the same flow in style and defining characters. It seems so far, it is opinion that people are basing their knowledge on. I'm looking for fact by example. There are many variables that come into play with authentic signings, as well as many differences, depending on a persons mood, demeanor, fatigue, etc. when signing. Some forgeries are painfully obvious, while others are just barely on the edge of possible. It doesn't help when the person questioning authenticity is already in the hole for hundreds of dollars, or in worse situations, thousands. With the latter, a person tries just that much harder to prove at all costs that theirs is authentic. At best, they are debatable. 

Have you ever heard of someone writing out a personal account of a live signing? A provenance of sorts. Every provenance I have come across was verified by fact in some instance, or an unrelated second party. It seems a provenance would take precedence over a COA. COA's are essentially what one believes to be so, while a provenance is verified proof in some way shape or form. Of course an actual picture of the person receiving the autograph with the autograph signor is fool-proof, but that usually costs extra, and people are less likely to part with something so personal. 

It's a larger scale dilemma than it needs to be, all in thanks to the scammers and present day highway men. Mickey Mantle signed so many items and at so many different stages in his life, it would be impossible to definitively say questionable signatures are fakes. Obvious is obvious. But, questionable is.....

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Permalink Reply by John Spillane on August 16, 2018 at 10:31am

Unfortunately, they're horrible forgeries!

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on August 16, 2018 at 1:40pm

Actually, Mantle is one of the easiest to determine genuine and forgeries, because he was such a consistent signer and the forgeries are (or were) produced in huge quantities.

Yours was machine-signed in marker. Look at the left curves of the Ms under magnification or a high-resolution scan and you'll probably see areas with a circular pattern as if the pen was spinning to make the curve. The photo paper is inkjet photo paper. The results look very similar to regular lab photos. If there's printing with the name of the photo paper that will help identify it. The photos are printed high-resolution, but when you zoom in close you won't see the continuous flow like a photo lab print. It will be made up of very fine geometric shaped dots.

Read Chris Williams great piece on this particular forgery source: https://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/ebay-mantle-dimaggi...

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Permalink Reply by Ezra Spurlock on August 16, 2018 at 2:36pm

But, wait. There's more....And it wouldn't be complete without a Ted Williams....

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Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on August 16, 2018 at 2:47pm

we have seen hundreds of this style of forgery.  And most of them are on paper that wasn't even around when Mantle was alive.  they are NO DOUBT awful forgeries.  Nothing else needs to be said.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on August 16, 2018 at 2:47pm

Did you buy all of these?

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Permalink Reply by Ezra Spurlock on August 16, 2018 at 3:07pm

Unfortunately, yes. I had a suspicion when I was offered them, so really no one to blame but myself. The price point was valid, so I gave the guy the benefit of the doubt. Is there any recourse for this type of sale? Probably not, because I have no way of verifying the seller knew they were forgeries. It is circumstantial evidence at best. Word of advice, don't buy anything on Offer Up.

It pays in the long run to know what one is buying.

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