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TWO JFK 1954 TLS Real or Secretary ? Please Help !

Hi, I am new here but have scoured these threads for quite a while. I am somewhat of a collector (mainly Beatles) but these items are more of a "personal" nature to me as they were sent to my father. I have read, compared and gotten many opinions over the years regarding these letters and am well aware that Kennedy signatures are amongst the hardest to authenticate. It is my hope to get Andreas Wiemer and Steve Cyrkin involved in this discussion as their input in previous discussions has been invaluable.

I have TWO JFK letters signed nine days apart and are drastically different. Mr. Wiemer's recent study and discussion notes has raised issues regarding the January 11th signature. Mainly, the stopping after the "e" in Kennedy as opposed to stopping after the "n" - in a previous discussion, he has termed this WRONG, although, admittedly, at one time thought this "style" was authentic.

The second letter dated January 20th is a completely different style (obviously). However, it incorporates styles from earlier authentic Kennedy signatures (1950-1952), the almost "V" like "K" in Kennedy, the "8" style "J" in John, as well as the skipping of the second "e" in Kennedy and the "d" along with the previously seen swooping "Y".

Many years ago, John Reznikoff gave these a cursory "looks good" but I know that a lot of new info has come out since that time.

These letters pertain to my father becoming a US citizen and I am very happy to have them in my possession. I have gone through the trouble of mounting and displaying one of them in my home (I'll reveal which one after I get opinions - LOL). I also have the "franked" envelopes that they came in and will provide photos if that would help at all.

I am simply trying to get the most informed opinions regarding this so that I can confidently display it and pass on to my children. Please help. Please ask any questions if I have missed anything and I greatly appreciate your feedback. I look forward to hearing from you.

Tags: Historical, JFK, TLS, presidential

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Permalink Reply by Rfitzz on August 20, 2018 at 10:28am

Michael, thanks again for your efforts. I have just posted a new comparison using Andreas' study and would love your feedback after viewing. Thanks again.

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Permalink Reply by Rfitzz on August 20, 2018 at 10:23am

I have taken the liberty of using Andreas Wiemer's previously posted examples to compare my Jan 11, 1954 signature to his recent study. Although it would seem that it would fall into his "questionable" category some of the other characteristics seem to match his authentic versions as well. The questionable areas being the stopping after the "e" in Kennedy as opposed to the "n" and the shape of the "y" in Kennedy. I'm not sure regarding the downstroke of the "h" in John, mine appears a little closer to the "o" than his questionable examples. What confuses me most is the "slant" of the overall signature, it appears very similar to the authentic examples and not as "upright" to the "questionable" ones. Again, I appreciate any and all feedback.

Attachments: No photo uploads here

JFK Comparison Jan 11.JPG, 807 KB

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Permalink Reply by Rfitzz on August 20, 2018 at 10:39am

Forgive me for posting so much but, as I explained, I am very passionate about this given that it is related to my father. I have also used Andreas Wiemer's recent study to compare my Jan 20, 1954 signature. As stated earlier, this seems to be more consistent with his earlier 1950-51 style. The "8" style "J" in John and the "V" style "K" in Kennedy. The signature does stop after the "n" in Kennedy, however, the looped "d" and separated "y" in Kennedy give me concern. I have seen this done in other earlier examples though. If this were a secretarial, why use a style that he used three years earlier ? I've not seen any other examples of this style in the 1954 timeframe. This confuses me and any further opinions and input would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

Attachments: No photo uploads here

JFK Comparison Jan 20.JPG, 596 KB

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Permalink Reply by Abcd on August 21, 2018 at 11:26pm

Hello,
Check on the back catalogue on RR. See if you can find other instances of your discrepancies (especially if he had added some extra writing in his own hand)

I'm tending to go with 'Likely'

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Permalink Reply by James on August 21, 2018 at 6:49pm

Rfitzz, I got your message. Sorry, I haven’t been signed in all day. I’m just not 100% sure on the Jan 20th one. However, I must say, you present a very compelling case as to its being authentic. Consequently, I have to say that I now lean toward it being authentic! I’d love to hear Andreas’s or Herman Darvic’s opinions if possible.

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Permalink Reply by Rfitzz on August 21, 2018 at 9:32pm

Thanks again for your feedback. I’d love to hear thoughts from others as well...especially, Andreas and Herman. Now you can see why I’m so confused. I know I will probably never really get a definitive answer but the more people who weigh in - the better !!!

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Permalink Reply by goodcat on August 21, 2018 at 10:10pm

If the item pertains to becoming a US citizen then likely it IS a secretarial as far as I understand it

But you are right about asking for Herman Darvick's opinion... if he has the time and grace to give his opinion

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Permalink Reply by Rfitzz on August 21, 2018 at 11:46pm

Good cat, I appreciate your point, as I have thought that myself. However, I have seen many, many authentic and secretarial signatures on a variety of correspondence. I have never seen any consistency regarding the content of the letters. I’ve seen both secretarials and authentic signatures on both important and inconsequential correspondence. In the past, many “authentic” TLS’s regarding citizenship have been sold through reputable auction houses. Unfortunately, this has only added to my confusing situation...

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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on August 21, 2018 at 11:49pm

What sells and what is genuine only dance together - they are not married.

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Permalink Reply by goodcat on August 22, 2018 at 12:27am

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Permalink Reply by James on August 22, 2018 at 1:37am

Eric, so well-put! What a way with words you have!

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Permalink Reply by James on August 21, 2018 at 10:47pm

I don’t know if anyone else is having this problem with the website. If I hit reply underneath a comment, I get shifted to the top of the page and don’t get to write a reply...unless it’s a reply to the main discussion. Also if I hit the Forums column and I’m anywhere bit the home screen, I get shifted back to the home screen. Frustrating.

Anyway, I’m generally pretty good with JFK autographs. I’ve probab spent more time on JFK’s various autograph styles than anyone else. I’ve owned probably about 10 authentic JFKs, and I’ve been studying his autographs on and off for about four years. A good part of the time I can tell immediately if a signature is authentic or secretarial. I used to have a large number of exemplars, but unfortunately they somehow got deleted. Bummer. One thing is for sure, JFK autographs are something one really has to stay on top of in order to remain competent because there are so many DIFFERENT authentic styles as well as so many DIFFERENT secretarial styles.