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Authenticity is Everything
One of Eric's tools for authentication - Joni Mitchell (short version)
Hi All,
I am posting this here as this method is buried in another thread and not likely to be seen. In the recent Vincent Price SP discussion there was some question of authenticity. It was suggested I make a dedicated Discussion of this technique which I have been using succesfuly for more than 10 years. I'm showing just one method that has proven very useful over the years. Viewing signatures alongside known exemplars (I miss TheCead!) flipped backwards and/or upside and/or flipped horizontally and/or flipped vertically in Photoshop to view forms, loops angles, spatial relations and negative spaces without the eye being muddied by seeing the normal letter shapes - to see clinically from a different POV. This example is a Joni Mitchell questioned by Stepeanut. My analysis is below the questioned Mitchell. To read the entire thread, which I recommend, click HERE.
Here is the questioned Mitchell. Beneath that is the questioned signature on the bottom along with three genuine examples using this technique. The questioned example is slightly atypical but clearly genuine in my opinion based on the work I prepared. Stepeanut agrees. Three points of reference were selected and highlighted in Yellow. I have not encountered many if any forgeries that can withstand this sort of scrutiny. The bad material sticks out immediately.
Again, there much more information and explanations in the original Discussion with positive comments from other members and top Bowie authenticator Andy Peters (Davidbowieautograph.com) who also uses this technique to be found HERE.
Here is my comparison - upside down and flipped horizontally.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Pauline Berry on
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These look great. That Joni vibe, regardless of two lines or not etc.
I don't like disagreeing, but I strongly think the one is question is very "questionable" :-/ every part of it. It doesn't have the vibe of any of the rest.
Mind you, the photo seems out of focus, which doesn't help. But the hi-lighted shapes are all a little different, and the flourishes are not defined, as they are in all the other autographs.
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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on
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I have not encountered forgeries where the loops, the hardest thing for the forger to imitate, and their relationships work upside down and reversed. I believe it would be an amazing feat. Let's see what Stepeanut has to say. :)
And yes, a better scan would be most helpful.
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Those 2 you like are the original scans of the of the first and third in the yellow tinted scans. They were enhanced for the comparison. The first was authenticated by me with this technique. Looking forward to Stepeanut's comments. This all very interesting :)
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It's a great technique, upside down and mirrored.
Joni is not my area of expertise, as you know. I think a clearer scan would really help.
Don't mean to put a cat among the pigeons! :-)
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We should be able to - Stepeabut bought it.
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Permalink Reply by Stepeanut on
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Thanks for your input, Pauline.
My gut feeling is that the signature on the programme is genuine, and that what you see as hesitancy is probably the result of the ballpoint pen/heavy card stock combo and the circumstances in which the autograph was obtained — perhaps a less controlled environment than the one in which you obtained your lovely IP example. Ballpoint pen is very typical for an autograph obtained in the U.K. in the early 1980s, and this one looks vintage to my eye. I’d be much more concerned if it were a big, bold signature done with a Sharpie.
As for style, Joni has two versions of her signature that I like to call the neat and the scruffy. I discussed this in the longer version of this thread. What we have here is an example of her neat signature, without the crazy loops on the final ‘…ell’. My signed copy of her Morning Glory on the Vine book is in the same style, and although it was signed many years later, the final L also comes to a slight point at the top before the last downward stroke. This is rare in Joni’s signature, but you do see it on occasion.
As well as the handwritten signature, there are two printed Joni signatures on this programme — one neat, one scruffy. Neither is an exact match with the other, or the handwritten version. If someone were attempting to replicate Joni’s signature back in the day — before the Internet made finding exemplars easier — surely they would have used one of these as a template, rather than the two-line neat variant we see here?
Here are the two printed signatures I’m talking about:
Last, but not least, I have seen many examples where the letter T has a slight curve to the cross. Here is one from a 1979 lithograph:We’ll know more when my programme arrives, which may take a couple of weeks, but I’ll post better photos here when it does. I think it was worth the punt for the price.
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I would love to see a new scan. I definitely think it's worth the punt for the price too.
I agree with many of your points. I see what you are getting at.
Same band on that programme as was at the gig I attended, I got those signatures too, because of the invite to the after party.
Vinnnie Colaiuta, in my estimate the most amazing drummer in the world, Russell Ferrante, guitarist Michael Landau and Joni's then husband, Larry Klein.
Joni's signature features on the front of her album Court and Spark, although it's printed. Many years later I twigged it was the same hand as her signature in my book. She's been doing her own album art forever.
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Joni’s signature appears on lots of official product, including the Wild Things Run Fast album cover. It has very much become part of her corporate branding down the years.
Here, you can see it on her Archives — Volume 1 box set, which just happens to be on the shelf next to me, in my home office:
I’ll definitely post better photos of the 1983 programme, once I have it in hand. It’s coming from a small, provincial auction house. I spoke with them yesterday, and the lady told me she has around 700 lots to package up, which may take her a couple of weeks, but she’ll try to find mine and fast track it for me. Watch this space.
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Okay, so the programme arrived this morning — great service from the auction house — and I’ve taken a couple of photos. Click through for high res:
Thoughts and opinions welcome.
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Hi!
Well that second scan is a lot better. It certainly moves the needle for me. Though I like the Joni, more than the Mitchell, much is right about it compared to my own one, for example, from the same era.
So the paper is somewhat heavy and textured? I can't get my head around the couple of slowness signs at the start and end of Mitchell, but other than, it could well be authentic. I couldn't call it, as I only do Marilyn Monroe.
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Hello Pauline, Steve,
I feel the same way. I don'r think the paper is textured, just heavy and glossy. You can get a feel for the paper by the creases and hairlines in the high res scan. I was out all day until dinnertime and am way to tired to delve into this now, but I will shortly. I think Steve did well.
Best wishes,
Eric
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Hi Pauline and Eric,
Thank you both for responding again.
This autograph is on the front cover of a tour programme, so it’s on heavy, slightly glossy, card stock, not paper. (Eric, if you have a copy of Bowie’s 1983 Serious Moonlight Tour programme, it’s not dissimilar to that in feel.)
The two awkward points, on the M and the final L are among the easiest points in Joni’s signature for a potential forger to get right. All the difficult stuff looks spot on here, to me. This is why I’m of the opinion that this was signed in less than ideal circumstances, perhaps stood at the stage door after a gig. I have certainly gotten one or two shaky stage door autographs over the years.
For me, the shoulder of the lowercase ’h’ is a good sign. Joni tended to do a quick, pointy flick of the pen, before looping into the ‘e’. So many forgers get this wrong, and some miss it out completely. But, again, it looks correct to me here.
I bought the programme from a Nottingham auction house, so the nearest gig on Joni’s 1983 tour schedule would be Birmingham, but who knows where the programme has been over the last 38 years.
Eric, it sounds like you want to take another, deeper look at this. As always, I am most grateful for your time and expertise, and look forward to hearing your final conclusion.
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