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Authenticity is Everything
Frustration over a Jim Henson autograph that I know is authentic (but rejected by Beckett, possibly due to his varied styles of signing his name)
Earlier this week, I posted on the Autographs subreddit about a Jim Henson autograph that I'd recently purchased from an online estate sale. It was previously owned by a man with a collection of autographs nearing 2,000 or more. (see post in question, https://bit.ly/33pl3GR )
Unfortunately, this failed authentication with AutographCOA.com, failed to impress a fellow Redditor, and received "unlikely to pass full authentication" from Beckett.com (in that order).
However, I do have a second Jim Henson autograph that I purchased via an eBay auction some years ago. It came directly from a collector in New York state. For my piece of mind and to satisfy my (diagnosed) anxiety, I submitted it for the $10 pre-certification at Beckett.com. To my dismay, it also came back as "unlikely to pass full authentication."
So I went immediately back to eBay and got back in touch with the seller. He had earned my trust when I purchased the autograph and I wanted to be reassured. Last night, after a few emails exchanged back and forth with this person who had acquired the autograph, I wrote down the following:
The following things are true, as told to me by the seller. I have no reason to believe he's lying. He has proven himself to be a very trustworthy individual.
He attended a meet-and-greet event, promoting Muppet Babies merchandise, at a department store (possibly Macy's) in New York City. He acquired Jim Henson's signature on a Bert toy puppet, an Ernie toy puppet and on a poster for Muppets Take Manhattan. Later, he purchased a glass case to display the two toys in his home. The Muppets Take Manhattan poster later fell off a wall, damaging it. He later had the autographed portion of the poster professionally framed for redisplay in his home. Twenty or so years later, he sold the framed portion of a poster via an eBay auction (to me). As of October 2021, he had the two signed toys authenticated (in person) with AutographCOA.com.
During the course of our emails, he stated that if I wanted to return the autograph because of my lack of confidence (and Beckett being unable to authenticate it). I said that I did not want to return it. It can also be noted that the seller is a graphic designer who has collected other items that I would love to collect myself, including original comic art and other autographs.
In order to believe the autograph of JH is in any way fraudulent, I have to believe all of the following:
The seller is lying about having attended the event at the department store where Jim Henson appeared. He forged Jim Henson's signatures on two toys and a Muppets Take Manhattan poster. He also purchased a glass case to display the two toys with the fraudulent autographs. In order to make the autograph worth less, he damaged the poster and had the autographed portion professionally framed for display in his home. Then he decided to sell it 20+ years later. He later managed to get the two fraudulent autographs on the toys professionally authenticated at great cost to him, despite being fake.
I think you would agree that this strains credulity. Moreover, scammers do not generally return emails years after the transaction was completed or offer to buy back the item in question.
I would love to be able to authenticate the JH autograph, not only for my own piece of mind but because I've started on this journey and now I want to finish it. Also, it'd be nice to have it authenticated if my surviving relatives (I have no wife or kids but I have nieces and a nephew) want to sell it after I'm dead. It would be nice if it could go to another Muppets fan who could then have confidence in its authenticity. A copy of this post, along with my message history with the seller and his photos of the authentication letters for the two toys, are going to go into a file folder once I am done with this episode.
What makes this all the more frustrating is this: Jim Henson had two different ways of signing his name. Sometimes he wrote the J with a loop, (e.g., https://imgur.com/a/Lt3vB5F ) and sometimes he signed his J with a diagonal line instead of the loop ( https://imgur.com/a/mfd2AFM ). I obviously don't know why he would sign his name one way on one occasion and a different way for something else. On the day the original owner of my Jim Henson autograph got the two toys and the poster signed, Jim Henson signed his name two different ways ( https://imgur.com/a/fYM4DE9 ). Here's one that Beckett authenticated that does have the loop on the J: https://ebay.to/30f6KDh ... The other three Beckett-authenticated JH autographs currently on ebay have the diagonal line J.
I appreciate any and all advice or feedback that this forum can provide. Please be kind. I've had a terribly stressful week. (I hate the holidays).
Thank you for reading.
Replies are closed for this discussion.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Josh Board on
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That was a very, very interesting story. I think it's a perfect example of a few things I've always said. NEVER buy autographs -- unless a few things are going to happen. You are buying it FOR YOURSELF, and DO NOT plan to sell, and therefore don't care to get it authenticated (you'll either spend the money to authenticate and they say it's authentic, but you weren't going to sell anyway -- OR, you had planned to sell, and now you can't). So that's a waste of money/time either way.
Also, anybody can make a great story that's believable, but you bring up a point that I agree with -- he would not bother to return emails years later, etc etc. So, that alone, should calm your anxieties. If your nephews can't sell it, oh well. At least you can enjoy it now (hopefully). Don't worry about what others will do when you're gone. Otherwise, you'll beat yourself up over all this.
I like an example that Roger Epperson once said. He had Mick Jagger signed on a guitar, which was signed by other Stones. But Mick signed it like a little kid (I forgot the details; I think it was handed to him while he sat in a car). I had Beck (not Jeff, the other one), sign a CD where he merely spelled his name in polka dots. Nobody will ever believe that's real. Well...it is what it is. We have items WE know are real, even if we won't make big money ever selling them.
So, enjoy!!!!
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Permalink Reply by Colin Ryono on
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Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
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Do you have any opinions on the autograph yourself?
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With all due respect, you are placing way too much importance on the stories told to you by sellers.
Anyone who is willing to forge an autograph and sell it to you will also be willing to create a fraudulent backstory to go along with it.
Don't get me wrong - the story here sounds entirely believable. But even if this story isn't a lie, the next one might be. And it might not even be the seller who is lying - it might be a lie that was told to them when they got the item in question.
I read your entire long post and what stood out for me at the end was that you did not really say anything about the autograph itself and what about it makes you think it's real. It was all about the collector, his display case, how many years he supposedly had it, posters falling off the wall, other autographs he has, etc. Nothing about comparing specific points about the autograph to known authentic examples.
Also, you seem to be starting with the assumption that it is real and then requiring convincing proof that it is not. That is a rather dangerous approach.
I am very skeptical about some of the authentication companies for various reasons. I do trust opinions from certain individuals whose expertise I respect. I do not support having blind faith, either in a seller's stories, or an authentication company's pronouncements. The autograph must also speak for itself. Furthermore, what is supposedly known about a certain autograph style can evolve over the years - autograph styles that were previously accepted as authentic are now known to be secretarial or forgeries, or vice versa.
The most important lesson I learned in this hobby was years ago. My translation of the lesson is this: an autograph must not only be authentic, it must also be authenticatable.
There are lots of signatures that are authentic but they deviate enough from accepted styles that they are not authenticatable. If you want to accept these as real, then you are also opening the door to accepting the high quality forgeries.
Anyway, that's all just my opinion, and you will need to decide for yourself what will make you feel comfortable with your collection.
In closing, I will add that knowledge (not faith in a story) is power. If you educate yourself about a particular person's autograph then you can have confidence in what you are buying.
P.S. - What you should be doing in your post is asking for opinions about the autograph, not whether or not the backstory is believable.
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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on
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+1!
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Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on
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I do not pay any attention to anyone's backstory. The signature has to be evaluated based on its own merit.
I have not studied Henson but just did a quick evaluation of his signatures based on a google search. I also found this one that AML deemed authentic. I see definite similarities. He did vary his J, sometimes closing it (as is the case with this example). The on in the OP could be authentic.
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Thx for posting this example. I agree that there are some promising similarities. (Like you, I have not studied Henson, either).
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Thank you both.
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I would pass right over this just from the chop cut out of a photo and the crease. Should be very discounted but I'd pass. It is a problem piece which many don't seem to like - the condition/presentation is very poor. I prefer to hear "WOW!".
"...So I went immediately back to eBay and got back in touch with the seller. He had earned my trust when I purchased the autograph and I wanted to be reassured..." - What did you expect him to say? Suppose he lied? It takes a lot more than that to earn trust IMO.
"...The following things are true, as told to me by the seller...." - Maybe. Maybe not.
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I'd like more people to weigh in but here are a few more random thoughts, just based on my own opinion...
It is not possible to authenticate a signature based only on a letter by letter comparison. The whole signature must also look correct when viewed as a single image.
However, letter by letter comparisons are also helpful.
Personally, based on a quick glance, I see positive comparisons between yours and the authenticated one everywhere. Even on the J, the very start of the letter and upper loop are comparable. Other letters are comparable: the decreasing size of the humps in the M, the slants of the E, S, and N relative to each other in the last name, etc.
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My old question - say it's authentic - is it nice? Why pursue such a poor example? To me it is bearing down on fatally flawed. What is the upside with such a peice?
As for the authenticity, it would be good to have about 30 period known exemplars to work with.
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There’s a slight hesitance to the J?
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