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Calling all John Wayne experts, need your opinion

This would be a good case study for this forum and what better place with all the autograph experts. And, all the PSA /JSA discussion going on.

I recently sent a John Wayne letter to someone who I respect as a very skilled authenticator. He is also probably consulted quite often by PSA for vintage Hollywood. His opinion was that the John Wayne letter below is secretarial. Hence, I assume it would probably not pass PSA. I am NOT “questioning” his expertise. But, I would like to hear from anyone who has a good level of expertise with John Wayne. I have a good background with his signature which is why I am a bit baffled here. Below is the letter with two PSA pre-cert and cert photos I bought from R&R. They are both from the same time frame as the letter signature, 1976-1977.

This is what I see.

1). The “J” is consistent on all three
2). The “o” seems to have the standard double circle
3). The “o” connects to the “h” the same, but here is where I thought there could be a secretarial “fingerprint”. The ‘H’ in the second PSA John Wayne is much higher than the “h” in the letter and also the PSA has a wide loop in the handle of the h. However, after looking at about 25 other genuine Wayne signatures I noticed the smaller “h” without a loop on several including the second PSA signed photo at bottom of the below image. So back to square one.

4). The “n” in John has pretty solid consistency to the PSA signatures, though it does have an element of a subtle right tilt.
5). The “W” at first had a drastic left curve on top of the right wing, that extends beyond the first stroke/wing of the “W” . But, then I noticed the second PSA has a similar strong left curve in same spot. However, I did notice the “W” has a loop in the middle that the others didn’t have. Also, the drastic right wing curve has a bit of an "unnatural" look to it.
6). The rest of the “Wayne” are remarkably identical including very subtle characteristics such as the open top of the “a”, and the even height of the top pf the “y” to the top of the “n” and that very unique and subtle drop in the “ne” which is NOT evident in almost every Wayne secretarial signature I’ve seen.

Also, I believe based on the UACC late 80’s autopen study , that John Wayne did not apply for an autopen machine until 1978, which he would probably never use, because he was severely ill and passed away the following year.

Would like to hear your thoughts. What am I missing here?

Thanks ,

Kevin Conway

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Permalink Reply by john reznikoff on January 5, 2011 at 6:27pm

I am learning something here. Remember authenticating is an art not a science. Yes, there is a scoring system used by JSA and a very effective one. -2 means very likely NG -1 probably NG 0 might be good might be bad +1 probably good +2 very likely good. I use fractional scores too. With the evidence presented here and on Hermans blog that shows secretarials, ones that Koschal offered as real, I would say the letters are both +1.5 .....this would be subject to change with new examples or if someone can show me the the "tell" and I believe it is accurate.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on January 5, 2011 at 7:24pm

But I think you'd agree, John, that the "tells" are only part of it......there's the feel.

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Permalink Reply by kevin conway on January 12, 2011 at 7:28pm

Here is a John Wayne, pretty obvious secretarial (in my opinion) that sold tonight in a SPorts Auction for nearly $700, PLUS premium....Ouch!

P.S. Not trying to make anyone look bad, but a good educational reference

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Permalink Reply by John Gurk on July 19, 2011 at 7:47am

Hello all, I have been collecting John Wayne signatures for the past 25 years. First off, I believe that your Duke letter is authentic. I would have no problem purchasing this letter. I have handled a few hundred pieces. I started out with photos and then started concentrating on documents, contracts, letters, some really nice pieces. I have built a very respectable collection of John Wayne handwritten items. My most prized is a handwritten Thanksgiving card to his mother which is signed "Duke" aka "Marion" But, am a bit embarrassed to admit that the very first piece that I purchased has given me the most worry. This Hondo photo inscribed to my middle name...Dave was the piece that started my obsession for John Wayne material. It was purchased from a VERY high profile dealer in the US some years back. I now believe it to be a secretarial. I would so appreciate another opinion or two. Thanks so much! John

Attachments: No photo uploads here

john wayne dave.JPG, 1.1 MB

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Permalink Reply by kevin conway on July 19, 2011 at 12:57pm

John,

Yes, a secretarial

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Permalink Reply by Great_squasher on January 15, 2022 at 4:11pm

Very interesting read, eveb ten years later! I have a card allegedly signed by John Wayne in June/July 1966 sent TTM to Norway. At first glance it looks like a forgery. Could very well be, but that must have happened on Wayne’s end. Any thoughts about this one or just trash it?

Attachments: No photo uploads here