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Authenticity is Everything
Bob Dylan poem
Hello! Would love opinions on the authenticity of the Bob Dylan poem and signature. I would love to get it encapsulated by PSA, and sent it off to them and just received it back as “questionable authenticity”. I contacted Roger Epperson who said his opinion is that it is authentic. I’ve also done some research into Dylan autographs and it seems they are frequently difficult to authenticate as his signature varies greatly. Anyhow, is it real? And if so, do I send back to PSA for a second try at encapsulation?
Thank you!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Stepeanut on
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I forgot to mention, there are also signed classic LPs and handwritten lyric transcripts that came from Dylan’s manager, Jeff Rosen, and are sold via Nate D. Sanders Auctions in Los Angeles. You’ll pay a premium for those, though — especially the lyric transcripts.
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update: thank you to ballroom, stepeanut and Keith for your review and opinions on the piece. Adding a few more photos now that the notebook paper is out of the photo album page.
one interesting thing I noticed, when looking at the back side, the lyrics almost appear to be written in a thicker sharpie or with more force as compared to the signature.
anyhow, I am mailing to roger Epperson today for his full review.
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Update for those interested: Roger Epperson has the piece right now and it sounds like I should have it back by the end of this week or early next week. Will share the outcome then.
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Update: Roger Epperson complete review results: AUTHENTIC.
Where do I go from here?
I will be proceeding forward with conservation framing the Dylan handwritten lyrics and autograph (possibly with a black and white Dylan photo, possibly without a photo as a stand-alone item). After framing, I will be placing in my home for display.TLDR rationale: Roger Epperson is one of the most (if not the most) respected/trusted/proven authenticator of Bob Dylan autographs and I have made the decision to trust his expert opinion. I am also basing this decision on my own research, which I go in depth in below.
Long-form explanation:
I think I have outlined in detail the journey and process of getting here, but for those curious, or who could benefit from my experience, adding some additional color here. Also, in case you don’t make it through this long and winding post, I’m still curious to hear from you: what would you do in this case?I am a lifelong Bob Dylan fan who grew up on the Iron Range of Minnesota - that same Iron Range where Bob Dylan lived from the time he was 6 years old through high school graduation (1948-1959). I’ve been interested in owning a Bob Dylan autograph for many years due to the personal meaning I associate with him and his work. I do not consider myself an autograph collector and am in no shape or form an autograph authentication expert. I am definitely not a Bob Dylan autograph authenticator. Prior to this experience, I had never sent an autograph of any type for authentication. I am not interested in collecting autographs of famous people. I am not knocking the autograph collecting hobby. I understand we all have our interests, passions and hobbies. What I collect are Major League Baseball (MLB) game-used baseball bats (which comes into play later in my story). Many consider this a ridiculous proposition (And I admit it mostly is.).
Being a Dylan fan, I have attended a number of Bob Dylan concerts across a number of cities and states over the years. I went to these concerts to witness Dylan doing his craft. I've also been interested to ask him for his autograph. Sadly, I have had the same experience as most interested in requesting his autograph– not getting an opportunity to come at all close to him to ask him for his signature. That is aside from two somewhat close/closer opportunities in Roanoke VA and Wallingford CT, but again, never even had the chance to verbally ask the question. I probably like to imagine these experiences being closer opportunities than they were. Deciding I was very unlikely to ever meet Dylan, let alone get him to provide an in-person autograph, I began my search for a Dylan autograph online. Over the years I have searched online casually for a Dylan autograph, but have mostly seen either extremely cheap/obvious (even to me - my thinking is below) fakes or very expensive authentic examples. I’ve also considered buying a signed print from Castle Fine Art, and may still eventually do so.
Online, and especially on eBay, I observed many Dylan “autographs” on his more well-known records for sale, and on photographs of him. Most included only his signature and no inscription, lyrics or other words. I have been skeptical of the authenticity of these items due to the below market price, the volume of similar pieces and (in my novice mind), the likelihood of forgery. My common sense told me that the “mass-market/traditional” Dylan autograph enthusiast (I am not talking about people on this board or Dylanologists) would most likely be interested in obtaining a Dylan autograph on a well-known album like Highway 61 Revisited, Blood on the Tracks or Best Of. Either that or a straightforward Dylan autograph on a photograph of him. Again, my common-sense logic then led me to then suppose that most autograph forgers (not sure if that would even be the right word) would look to meet this demand by creating fake Dylan autographs on these types of items. So, I shied away from buying a “Dylan autograph” on a vinyl album or photograph (especially those that were priced well under market value and sold by unknown or untrusted sellers). I also mostly ignored autographs without inscriptions or additional handwritten words from Dylan thinking that added inscriptions or other handwritten words are less likely to appear on a forged item as they may increase the chance the forger gets caught.
Last year, I came across what I thought at the time could be, just might possibly be, with the slightest bit of hope, a poem and autograph from Bob Dylan on a small, aged notebook paper, written in felt tip pen or sharpie and held in an aged photo album page. (The piece this entire post is about.) There were plenty of reasons to be skeptical of the authenticity of the piece including:
1. Lack of provenance. The seller’s only explanation was that he purchased the piece from a Dylan collector in the 90’s and he was certain of its authenticity. In hindsight, I should have pressed for more details or asked for an authenticity guarantee, but I did not. (I’ve learned a lot over the last month through my own research.)
2. Lack of well-known or trusted seller. The seller had very little feedback in their profile and did not have many items for sale or that had sold.
3. Price significantly below market value. The price of the item was well below market price of even the less valuable Dylan autographs, which even in my inexperienced approach, set off warning signs.
4. Condition of the Bob Dylan autograph market. There are very few authentic Dylan autographs that exist (and even fewer being sold) and there is a high volume of fake Dylan autographs on the market.Despite all of those concerns, I purchased the item, knowing that I was taking a risk, and well aware that the item was likely fake. However, in my mind I was taking a calculated risk (that might be giving myself too much credit). Why?
1. The autograph was on an aged piece of notebook paper with what I believed to be a handwritten poem. This peaked my curiosity because (again in my non-experienced mind), this made the authenticity of the item more believable because most “Dylan autographs” I had seen for sale online were on his famous albums or on photographs of him. This was different. I began to think that just the fact that it was on notebook paper may mean there was a chance, however small that it could be real. Wouldn’t most people that are creating and selling fake Dylan autographs produce those on the items that are more likely to sell to the mass-market/traditional/non-autograph expert people? I’m not naïve enough to believe that there are not fake Dylan autographs on notebook paper or other random items – I know there are. But this still made it interesting to me.
2. The inclusion of the “poem”. As I mentioned above, I was more intrigued because of the inclusion of what I thought at the time to be a poem. It seems to me, most Dylan autographs (real or fake) are straightforward autographs without inscription or additional words.
3. The condition and type of the piece. It was clear the notebook paper was aged, and it was held in a page from a photo album, which was also aged. This made the idea that this could be authentic even more interesting to me. (Again, using common sense here – experts will have other viewpoints.) I thought if someone obtained Dylan’s autograph many years ago they may have been likely to place it in a photo album for safe keeping. I know I had photo albums with items of personal value in them growing up and I know others did the same. For example, I have tickets from concerts that I placed in photo album pages years ago for safekeeping. This was before autograph encapsulation, and the proliferation of ways to preserve valuable items. The paper and photo album page were aged, which in my mind meant that it was likely either a fake produced years ago or maybe the real deal.
4. The autograph and “poem” appeared to resemble real, authenticated Dylan handwriting and signatures in my brief research. I knew enough to know Dylan’s handwriting and autograph has varied greatly over time but this passed my inexperienced sniff test.After receiving the notebook paper, I stored it in a box in my home for a number of months and life went on. I didn’t think much about it or what my next steps if any would be.
In January of this year, as I was organizing and cleaning my basement, I came across the Dylan piece and began to consider what to do with it. Should I just pass it off as a fake and store it in a box in perpetuity or even toss it in the garbage? Should I display it in my home and simply call it authentic based on my inexperienced opinion? Or, is there another option? I began to think about asking trusted experts to look at it and give me their opinion on its authenticity.
My mind went to PSA. I thought of PSA first because I collect MLB game-used baseball bats. PSA has been established as the most trusted third party authenticator of MLB game used baseball bats (mostly due to the reputation of their authenticators: John Taube and Vince Malta). If you want to know if a baseball bat was likely used by a specific baseball player in a major league baseball game, you look to PSA. I was aware that, among other services, PSA offered autograph authentication (as some game used bat collectors also get their bats signed and want the signature authenticated). So, I filled out the PSA submission form and mailed it in. The results returned from PSA: questionable authenticity. Sigh… Do I finally call it a fake and send to the trash?
The PSA process took weeks. And while those weeks passed by I became more curious and did more of my own research. I found that, yes, PSA is a well respected TPA of autographs, but there seemed to be a more well respected TPA not just for any autographs, but for musician autographs and for Bob Dylan autographs. Roger Epperson. I think readers of this are well versed in his resume and reputation – I had never heard the name prior to this journey. I noticed Roger had a quick opinion option which is only $15 and really painless. I sent Roger $15 via PayPal and emailed over the image of the piece. Roger’s quick opinion came back: authentic. Now what?
In my research, I discovered the Autograph Live discussions (here!) and noticed that people frequently post autographs for opinions from those with experience, so I created an account and made this post. I received a few varying opinions from likely authentic to likely fake.
Between Epperson’s quick opinion and some positive feedback in the Autograph Live discussion, my curiosity remained. Instead of trashing the item or storing away to gather dust, I decided to move forward with the full review from Roger Epperson. Last week, I sent payment to Roger via PayPal and mailed him the piece. I just received news from Roger: AUTHENTIC!
Based on all of this, I will move forward with conservation framing and displaying the piece in my home. I am not interested in selling as I mentioned in previous posts.
My curiosity about the piece does remain. While waiting for Roger’s full review, I did more research. I came across an interesting story in the Autograph Live discussions about Jeff Gold at Record Mecca and his lawsuit around fraudulent Dylan autographs. I learned about court certified forensic document examiners (Jeff worked with James Blanco). I read about experts that can age date paper and writings.
Probably the biggest question that remains at this time to me is this: is my piece a forgery based on the piece shared by ballroom?
I’d like to dig into that a little more, but here is what I know about that piece: it was sold in on April 5, 2014 at Gotta Have Rock and Roll with authentication from Gotta Have Rock and Roll. (https://www.gottahaverockandroll.com/bob-dylan-handwritten-and-sign...). Based on the auction description it is the only known example of handwritten lines by Dylan to Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands. It sold for $9,900.
So, while I am moving forward with framing and displaying my piece, I am (somewhat lightly) looking into other avenues that could uncover more information. (I am curious and some would say obsessive.) Yesterday, I emailed Gotta Have Rock and Roll to ask if they could provide the contact info of either the seller or buyer (or both) for their Sad Eyed lyrics and autograph. I am interested to see if I could either a) dig into the provenance from the seller – if one exists and/or b) try to figure out if the buyer may have had their autograph authenticated by Epperson or another reputable TPA after purchasing. That would be nice to understand. As of this writing, I have not heard back from Gotta Have Rock and Roll.
I also emailed James Blanco who is the court-certified forensic examiner who worked on the Jeff Gold, Record Mecca Dylan forged autograph case. I requested an estimate for his POV (he is an expert in handwriting, not autograph authentication). As of this writing I have not received a response. Based on Jeff Gold’s experience, I am expecting it to be difficult to get Jeff to review the piece. If he is willing, no doubt, it would be very costly – Jeff shared in his post (https://recordmecca.com/news/autograph-forgeries-forensics-and-auto...) that he paid $15k for this service. (Please note: I have no interest in filing a court case against the seller of my piece – I only mention Jeff Gold and his experience as it revealed additional ways to separate a real from a fake Dylan autograph.)
I am also looking into experts that can age date paper and pen. It could be interesting to understand if through chemical analysis the date of the paper matches Dylan autographs from that period. However, I’m anticipating this to be a costly endeavor as well, and likely one that I will not be interested in investing in.
What would you do? Would you take Epperson’s full review as the source of truth? Would you take PSA’s opinion as truth? Would you invest in forensic analysis? Or would this end up in your trash? Really – interested in opinions!
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Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on
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Do you know if Roger is aware of the piece that was sold through Gotta Have Rock and Roll? Again, what really sticks out is the incorrect spelling of “silhouette”, which is missing the first “E.” This isn’t what I’d expect even from a phonetic spelling of the word, and yet Dylan did this twice? Also, the lines are structured exactly the same? “When” is also missing the “E”, but is spelled correctly on the GHRR piece. Are there any other examples of Dylan forming an “N” the way it appears in “moonlight”?
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Hi ballroom,
Thank you for your feedback. No, I do not know if Roger is specifically aware of the piece sold through GHRR. I appreciate the notes about the misspellings and letter formations- honestly I feel that type of analysis is out of my league. As I mentioned in an earlier post, my common sense actually tells me the opposite: that human beings often misspell the same words over and over. I know I do. I also know I am not Bob Dylan. I will say I spent some time over the last week researching Dylan handwritten lyrics and inscriptions to try to find other exemplars of him writing the word “silhouette” to see if he spelled correctly or incorrectly. I have been unable to locate any examples of Dylan writing that word correctly or incorrectly. I also tried to locate an image of Dylan’s original Sad Eyed lyrics, but it seems they have not yet surfaced (again trying to see if he misspelled silhouette). Let me know if you have found other examples.
and again, the letter formation points are beyond my knowledge. But I would expect Roger evaluates that?
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I agree with Ballroom here. Roger should be made aware of the other, similar autograph, so that he can factor that into his decision. Because I still believe it’s a problem. One or other of them can be genuine, but I’d be gobsmacked if both were.
I say this as a longtime Dylan watcher, who has seen many autographs, both real and fake, over the years. I wanted this one to be real, but the other one casts a serious shadow over its authenticity that cannot be ignored.
Btw, you won’t find another handwritten example from Dylan of the word “silhouette” because he’s never used it in any song other than “Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands”.
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Thank you, Stepeanut. It is helpful to know that Dylan did not use the word “silhouette” in any other songs. This is a long shot, but I just emailed the new Bob Dylan Center in Tulsa to see if they may have the original handwritten lyrics to Sad Eyed Lady. I will let you know if I receive a response.
following this post, I will email Roger with the image and link to the GHRR item to see if he can weigh in.
for my knowledge, and this is a question for both ballroom and Stepeanut- is the concern that a forger had the GHRR item in their possession and traced over it with the notebook paper I have? I ask because if that’s the concern, we can compare measurements of each piece to understand. Or, is the concern more so that a forger observed the GHRR piece and attempted to reproduce the same lyrics and signature side by side? Or some other method?
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I just emailed Roger a link to the GHRR item and asked if that changes his opinion. To date, Roger has responded to my messages within 24 hours. I will share the outcome here. The story goes on…
but, would still love insight from ballroom and Stepeanut on my previous forgery question.
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