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Permalink Reply by Jason H on April 4, 2022 at 5:31am

Yes I understand, but I've never seen a real Murray with the M in 2 parts.. if they exist, its rare.. this makes me wonder. I wish I could see this in person to look at all signs much closer and be 100% sure. I do not doubt you at all but, I think you may have got an idea by now how thorough I can be. I love being 100% certain about everything for myself. I have a fascination with Bill Murrays signature so this one's important to me

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Permalink Reply by Kenny Brian Regiec II on April 4, 2022 at 5:55am

I’m same way some days I’d get obsessed and just stare at it on my wall with scope and light . It blows me away that thought of idea they would do this for donating lot of money for charity event . I’m happy to donate for great cause don’t get me wrong but sucks seeing all these posters now 4 of them loos similar to mine.  Now my guess on type of marker used whether autopen or not closest I can find is Uni Paint marker that seems very consistent with the look of this signature . Those pens are very consistent where you don’t see the strides like marker . Unfortunately I just found more “giveaway posters” at the restaurant even one with Bills brother who works there in one of the pics and seems most of the posters have the same signature. Now when I actually went to the charity event the following year in 2017 the items at auction were def real like the Caddyshack canvas painting one I got . But ones they seem to giveaway and from where I got it through the yearly Prizeo donation in 2016 seem to be the same . Here are the others I found . Bill 

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Permalink Reply by Kenny Brian Regiec II on April 4, 2022 at 5:59am

More pics of my poster 

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Permalink Reply by Jason H on April 4, 2022 at 6:26am

Thats terrible. Let me know if you receive a response. I may write them down the road as well asking about similarities ive seen and that im a potential future buyer.. just so they know there's more than just 1 person on to them. 

So these pens, can you tell where the ink overlaps part of the signature? I cant see it on any of your examples. Just want to be sure there is absolutely no doubt this came from a pen. 

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Permalink Reply by JK on April 4, 2022 at 1:58am

The problem.is that autopens have seeped into the celebrity world especially in the past couple decades, and they (or their people) see them as "legitimate" signatures. 

I suspect it will only get worse. 

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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on April 4, 2022 at 2:08am

The earliest i have seen is about 1945 or so.

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Permalink Reply by JK on April 4, 2022 at 3:03am

Yes, but autopens were mainly used by politicians and a few military figures until more recently.

The earliest celebrity use of an autopen that comes to my mind is Jimmy Stewart in the mid 1990s. He didn't own a machine but the autopen manufacturer used a machine to sign a quantity of 8x10s for him.

There could of course be others among celebrity or sports figures that were earlier but he was one that I personally received.

One difference is that for politicians it was sort of their dirty little secret and they knew that it wasn't the same as a real signature, even though people knew they used them. But for modern celebrities (or their management) they apparently believe it's the same as the real thing.

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Permalink Reply by Jason H on April 4, 2022 at 5:22am

Thats pretty interesting. I never thought about when autopens started for celebrities. I started collecting in the 90s so its always been an issue for me.. I do have some vintage items that ive purchased but always triple check all the different ways they could be fake.. They are not off the hook. Stamps, secretarials and preprints have been around for much much longer. They still tried to deceive 

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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on April 4, 2022 at 5:55am

It was a William Bendix wallet size snap with a blue Autopen signature.

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Permalink Reply by Jason H on April 4, 2022 at 6:20am

Wow.. i also found this post from 2005.. stating it possibly started in the 1940s.. but the pictures posted are not loading

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/378521/judy-garland-genuin...

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Permalink Reply by Jason H on April 4, 2022 at 6:34am

Here's a copy of the main reply. Figured I'd repost it within this thread so it fresh in case that thread disappears completely at some point

Hi again,
here is a common item that has fooled a good number of collectors and even some dealers. It is an Autopen - the Autopen is a dastardly little machine designed to sign mechanically. It is capable of signing anything flat and any type of pen can be used - this example is in "Autopen blue" - the pen and ink supplied when you purchased a new template. It also came in black. Many can be identified by the color alone once you've seen it in person. The sheen of the ink is also a tell. The template is just that - a template cut from a genuine sample of the signature. This machine was designed to indent the paper or photo to give an authentic look - it can also bleed, smudge and strike through like a handsigned ietm, and can be set to sign in different locations. If the machine is jarred while signing it will give each signature a little unique flavor - but that is it. ALL signatures from an Autopen will match each other exactly (other than the "jarring" mentioned but the rest of the sig will be identical) - any signature that matches any known template pattern is not authentic. Another problem is the way it signes - it can't do curves well - it produces a very tight series of right angles that will easily show under a glass. Modern examples are getting better and better all the time which is why so many do not collect modern celebrities. Although not thought to be used outside of Washington at the time, I have shown these to be use in Hollywood as early as 1944 - William Bendix was using one after Lifeboat. Today they are rampant. Generally, all modern studio fan mail is signed in this way. The examples below are from 1960 - notice that, although signed in different locations, they are identical. I have seen these in blue, black and in both 8x10 and 5x7. They were sent out by the Midwestern Branch of the Judy Garland Fan Club. If you are wondering why this signature, which was made from an actual sample of Garlands signature, appears to differ from the example in my collection the reason is that the signed program is an in-person signature. Both are from 1960. Depending on the celebrity there may be great variation (like Garland) or very little (like DeForest Kelley) between in- person signatures and those signed under different circumstances. One must become very familar with both. And of course, when it was signed. A good collector will know that Garland stopped signing with a capital "G" around 1944, and that Lugosi stopped using the European accent over the "e" in "Bela" at about the same time. Lugosi also liked green ink, but the red examples are what people desire. And what type of pen - can't have a felt-tip Lugosi from the 20's as it had not been invented yet. I see about one of these every 2 months - often trying to be sold by people that know better

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Permalink Reply by JK on April 4, 2022 at 6:54am

Thx for posting.

Based on the earlier mention of Wlliam Bendix I had to refresh my memory as to who he was.  I googled him and of course recognized him.  Another tidbit I found was that he was actuven6on supporting candidates on the 1944 campaign.  I wonder of any of them got him acquainted with the dreaded autopen.  

Or maybe he was just a little ahead of his time in Hollywood. It seems that secretarials, rubber stamps, and preprints would dominate for a few more decades for Hollywood stars who couldn't or wouldn't sign their own autographs. 

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