Authenticity is Everything
Liza Minnelli Autopen - Kids, Wait Till You Hear This!
Starting this separate thread to track the Liza Minnelli autopen situation.
Signed copies of her new book, Kids Wait Till You Hear This!, include autopen signatures.
You may also visit the original Liza Minnelli thread, established when the book was announced, to read about the initial development of this issue:
https://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/liza-minelli-kids-w...
Feel free to post your examples or any info on the return situation.
Overlay Video 1 (click title to play video)
Note how “Liza” matches up (click title)
-First round, note how the “Love” appears to overlay nearly exactly
-Second round, the circle of the smiley face appears to overlap closely, and the L is starting to line up as well
-Third round, the Z and the A in “Liza” appear to lineup closely.
Notice how almost all of the smiley face lines up on this one
-With a slight adjustment, notice how the Z and the A start to align as well
Watch the top of the smiley face. All I am doing is bringing the circle of the smiley face into line. Watch how the Z falls into place. Watch how the top loop of the L falls into place. The “A” is a little off and also the “I” but you can see how they seem to be off by a very small and consistent distance.
Watch how the “OVE” lines up exactly on two examples received by the same person
Notice where “Love” is lining up on these and how much of Liza lines up with a slight shift
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Some of the segments are individually lining up….yet the two signatures appear different on face and when overlaid as a whole.
Example:
First, notice how the L lines up in “Love”:
Make a slight adjustment that then brings the “ove” into line:
Slightly adjust again to bring the L of “Liza” into line:
Slightly adjust again to bring the Z and A into alignment (also notice the “I” and the comma):
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It appears that the autopen signatures in these books were generated by an advanced autopen machine that can produce subtle variations in letter structure and placement that would disguise the use of autopen. Please see this video to learn more on how this works:
A thread has also been created to make others aware of this type of autopen usage and discuss if interested:
https://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/beware-of-the-new-a...
Tags: Autopen, Hear, Kids, Liza, Minnelli, This!, Till, Wait, You
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Stonefacejr
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Black Sharpies used to produce a yellowish halo as the marks aged. I understand that the company that makes Sharpies changed the formula in the early to mid-nineties, so this no longer happens.
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Permalink Reply by Jason H
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oh interesting. I never knew it was the markers fault. I started collecting in 91, seen similar on some from as late as the late 90s. maybe they used an old marker. good to know
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Permalink Reply by Matt M.
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Thanks for posting that link and photo StonefaceJr, that’s interesting and a great catch
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Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67
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I submitted this one to VeriMarx:
Here’s a portion of the result that’s relevant to the discussion:
The ink distribution shows natural variations in pressure, particularly in the connecting strokes and the eyes of the smiley face, which supports the conclusion of a manually applied signature rather than a mechanical reproduction.
Natural stroke velocity and a lack of hesitation marks support a finding of an original signature.
This doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s authentic, but if not it was executed in a way that seemed entirely natural to VeriMarx. I also submitted a Bob Dylan autopen and an Ozzy Osbourne autopen, and both came back as showing signs of being a reproduced signature.
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thanks for adding this. I really wouldnt expect anything more from it at this point in time. This may actually turn people away from using it as a service going forward
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Hi BallroomDays, that’s great to know. Thanks for sharing that.
I’m working with yours for a bit. I need some more time but wanted to show you how yours appears to be lining up with Mikhell’s. I’ll keep working on it, but it just seems weird.
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That one was posted by Chris Furness. I just submitted one of the examples that Jimmy James posted to VeriMarx and received a similar result. No signs of being a reproduction.
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Ah ok, thanks for clarifying. Yes, I think I previously did overlaying on Mikhell’s and another one. Good to know about the results of VeriMarx’s AI analysis. I’m curious what the major authenticators will do when they are presented with these.
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Here’s a portion of the VeriMarx results from the second signature:
• The pen pressure and ink flow demonstrate the spontaneity and confidence expected from a natural signature.
• The spontaneous execution and natural pen pressure strongly indicate that the signature belongs to Liza Minnelli.
• The signature exhibits the fluid, rapid-motion characteristics typical of Liza Minnelli.
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Permalink Reply by JIMMY JAMES
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Ya, thanks for doing this BallroomDays67
I thought about using VeriMarx myself,
but AI evaluating other AI doesn't quite do it for me.
A machine evaluating another machine doesn't fill me with a lot of confidence.
JJ
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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin
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Why not consider its results? There's no downside.
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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo
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I was sort of joking - I did not think anyone would actually submit one!
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