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Authenticity is Everything
The Great American Blues Players Signature Study: Please Add Your Examples
Hello everyone,
I have been wanting to start a thread on this for a long time, and i figure now is as good of a time as any. I collect primary guitar players, and have been selling alot of them off recently, but one thing i continue to collect are the great old blues guitar players. Their is something about the Delta Blues traveling lifestyle that holds alot of wonder for me. These guys laid the foundation of modern music and they inspired many, if not most, of the musicians working today. Most think of Robert Johnson when they think of the great Blues players, but their are so so many others that deserve mention and tons of respect.
As anyone who has ever studied early blues signatures knows, they are incredibly difficult to authenticate or even find at times. You have guys like Muddy Waters, Buddy Guy, BB King just to name a few whose signature examples can readily be found. But aside from a few key players, autographs from these guys are very hard to find. And when you find one, often you really have to trust your source or do some serious research. And even then you often cant find examples.
So i thought this would be a good thread that may help future collectors out with examples we think are authentic. Please post examples of blues signatures that you like and want to share. Guys like Buddy Guy and BB King probably dont need to be posted in mass b/c their signatures are so abundant, but dont hesitate if you would like to post some.
I hope this can turn into a good database, and really the only one of its kind on the net. I have many examples from many different sources and if someone doesnt want their picture posted just leave a comment and i will delete it.
I am going to start this off with Albert King. You can find Albert King signatures from time to time, and of the 3 King's, he is the next most available after BB. Alberts signatures are typically sloppy, shaky, and can take on a few forms. Albert often write "Love You" before his signature, and his typical signature takes the form of A. King. I have also seen variations including "A.B. King". King often would not write out King fully and the formation would flow from the K almost into the g. I have seen my fair share of forgeries with Albert, but his signature can be authenticated in most instances in my opinion. Here are some examples with sources:
This is one album i used to own and recently sold on RR Auction. It came from "Mr. Bebop", of Larrys Books and Autographs. He specializes in blues signatures and this was a great example of king.
These next images came from RR Auction
The Ace of Spades album is a nice example, and the rarer A.B. King signature. The middle cut display is more atypical. This one in my eyes can go either way but is probably good. The A looks typical but the King is a little more unusual. But he did do this from time to time in his shorter signature versions. The bottom example is a typical King signature.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on
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Hi guys,
I finally got around to snapping some better photos of the Fenton Robinson signed LP that i own. If its authentic or not, i just cant say. There just arent enough autos to compare too. But i am still hoping.
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Permalink Reply by Nate on
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Below is a slightly clearer/closer photo of the Sleepy John Estes one. I was the purchaser and just couldn’t resist the punt. I think there is a very good chance this is a complete turkey, but I’m yet to find another one to compare it to, so it just might be ‘right’. The other name on it (signing to say that the ‘x’ is Sleepy John’s mark) is R G? or D? Koester, I believe this is Robert (Bob) Koester who heads up Delmark records and the Jazz Record Mart in Chicago. Bob recorded Sleepy John for this album, ‘The Legend of’, and was one of the people who ‘re-discovered’ Sleepy John in the early 60’s. So Bob Koester has a solid link to Sleepy John, but the question is – is even the Bob Koester signature real/correct? If it is, then that would give major credence to this being Sleepy John's 'mark'.
If anyone out there can help shed any light on this ‘autograph’ mystery then that would be so great: Does anyone have an authentic Sleepy John? If so please post it. Does anyone know what a Robert Koester signature looks like? If so please let me know. Does anyone out there know the Koester’s or visit the Jazz Record Mart in Chicago? If so could they show them (or the staff) the picture on this posting and ask their thoughts (I'm based in the UK so I can't easily do it myself)? Arrggg! Please can someone put me out of my misery on this one!?!?
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Hi Nate,
I am working on this one man. I also was a bidder on that item. I felt there was a good chance it was genuine, but buying an album for an "X" was just a bit much for me at the time. I had just made some other purchases and couldnt afford to really go high on it. So congrats!! And with guys like Sleepy, in my opinion, an "X" if genuine, is worth it.
I have a friend who may have an authentic Sleepy signature. He has an Estes signature on an item with other legit signatures, and the timeframe the item was signed would put it before Sleepy went totally blind. He is currently doing research with the guy who got it IP to see if he actually saw Estes sign the item. If so, then we might have for once a legit Sleepy sig to compare too. But it could have been signed by someone other than Sleepy so we will have to wait and see. I will keep you updated.
Personally Nate, i think you scored. I have taken some gambles before myself, only to later be relieved i made the purchase. I think that you have an authentic Estes signature there. It just being a mark kinda sucks, but for some, thats all you have. It certainly couldnt be authenticated in my opinion, but the Koester could potentially. And thats a lead worth pursuing. But even if you never do authenticate the Koester, i still think the odds are its genuine.
The odds a forger would know of the Koester/Sleepy connection is extremely slim to begin with. Then add in Koester signing the album and making a remark "Sleepy John Estes.... His Mark" and i think the odds are almost to slim to count that its a forgery. A forger almost cetianly would have forged an attractive Estes signature, since no one really knows what one looks like that Estes signed before he went blind.
In my experience blind musicians often give "X" type signatures, and i think this is no exception. I think its genuine brother, just a gut instinct. Its an amazing piece if real, and i think it is. And i think you have one of the rarer signatures (marks, lol) of all the blues greats.
But i will keep researching this for you
Take care,
Carl
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Hi Carl,
Thank you for your kind reply, it's great to hear your opinion on this piece, and a massive thank you for taking the time with it. It would be so excellent to see another Sleepy John example, especially if it's one before he went completely blind. You mentioned it had other signers, these wouldn't happen to be Hammie Nixon and Yank Rachell? If it were that would be a totally amazing set to have, and one of the best trios I could ever think of. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that your friend has good luck with his research, and thank you again.
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As a further follow-up on the Sleepy John Estes (honestly I'm not consumed by it (well...maybe a little!)): Intrestingly I've just found a write up from someone on the web who went and saw the American Blues Festival of 1966 at the Royal Albert hall, in it he says "The Blues Festival performances were great but, looking back, what was staggering was that after the show we went backstage and met each and every one of the performers: Roosevelt Sykes (again) – he never mentioned his daughter this time! – Junior Wells, Otis Rush, Sleepy John Estes, Yank Rachell, Little Brother Montgomery, Sippie Wallace, Robert Pete Williams, Big Joe Turner plus drummer Freddie Below and bassist Jack Myers. We had no special privileges or passes and to this day I am amazed that they allowed us backstage, but they did – they must have been very much more free and easy then, allowing fans to meet their stars. Again, we spoke to all of the performers and obtained every single autograph including a cross (X) from Sleepy John Estes, who was virtually blind and could not write."
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Permalink Reply by Tacoma Blues on
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I am posting an update on this piece as the current owner. I was given the opportunity to present the above pictures today indirectly to Bob Koester (founder of Delmark Records) via his assistant. Mr. Koester stated that this is not his signature on the piece. He was not able to immediately place the handwriting either. He did verify, however, that Estes sign with an "X" after he went blind (which was not uncommon).
This unfortunately leaves us in a position where the piece cannot be authenticated based on the signed "R.G. Koester." What to make of it from this point forward is uncertain. The authenticity of the piece cannot be verified given the lack of verification on the the accompanying signature. As such it is either a lemon or perhaps something valid with unknown provenance. I tend to be cautious and lean towards the negative on this one. As Carl stated, I have purchased some pieces on a gut feel to find out later that I was right on the item. I would have probably made this purchase as well on a gut feel. Live and learn, I guess.
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Here are a couple more really cool blues guitarists. Both made their mark on the genre and deserve mention and great respect.
The first is a Chicago blues guitar giant, the one and only Luther Tucker. Tucker helped to redefine Chicago blues, and he was one of those guys who when you just here their guitar, and no voice, you can still tell its him. Tucker played with a host of blues legends, including the great Elmore James. Tucker died in the early 90s but signature examples are super rare. I have only ever seen one, and than one i own. It came from Mr. Bebop, and its possible Larry may have another or know where to get one, so if your interested talk to him. He has his own websiste, Mr. Bebop.com, i believe. And im not trying to plug this guy, b/c i dont know him from Adam. I have only purchase from him. But the shear size of his collection is staggering. His website has relatively few autos for sale on it, but you should see the items he sales on occasion at ebay. And i have been told he has some incredibly rare blues autographs. Anyway back to Luther. I have searched long and hard and have never found another example. I know their out there, they just dont hit the market it seems. Realistically, i would put his autograph at about the 75 to 100 dollar range. A rare auto for sure, but the demand isnt so great as with some of the others.
Here is my example:
Next up is a giant of a blues guitarist, although surprisingly, outside of the blues community, he isnt a household name, although he should be. John Watson Jr, better known as Johnny Guitar Watson, was a guitar master. He favored Fender Strats, and he could play circles around his peers. In fact, he was so good, that people compared him to Hendrix, and thought he was just as good. Watson experimented with funk and soul, but was blues based, and his guitar makes that apparent. Almost sounding a little like T Bone, who i will cover later. Watson was a colorful guy and always reminds me kinda of Bootsy Collins. He influenced a whos who of guitarists, from Clapton, to SRV, to Zappa, the list goes on and on. He was a guitar talent that should have put him at Hendrix fame, but it didnt.
Watson autographs can be found, but it will take some time and patience. Every few years i run into one at a reasonable price. Currently their are 2 on ebay, but they are way overpriced in my opinion. Watson signatures are desirable and rare, and not cheap either. Realistically i would say that one will cost you between 100 and 200 dollars depending on item. Here are some examples of Johnny.
Here is a Johnny form ebay
Here is another item from ebay
Here is one form Memorabilia UK
Here is another from Memorabilia UK
And here is one from my collection. Its a signed contract from Mr. Bebop and a really cool item.
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Hi guys,
This last month, i was fortunate enough to add another Luther Tucker to my collection. This one is in gorgeous condition, and signed by Tucker on a Sonny Boy Williamson LP. I believe it to be authentic, and it was obtained from the same source as the Lowell Fulson i posted earlier.
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Just one more for tonight.
This man really needs no introduction and his life was so crazy that it really is to much to list here. I am talking about Huddie William Ledbetter, known today commonly as Lead Belly. Lead Belly has gone down as the father and undisputed king of the 12 string guitar, and fo good reason. Lead Belly played most often with finger picks, and would work in relatively new techniques such as walking baselines. Lead Belly also fused folk and blues into a new type of music almost altogether. He could also play many different instruments and had a voice that made him even more popular than his amazing guitar skills.
His whole life is interesting, but just a cool fact, is that Leadbelly was a convict and spent many years in jail due to his temper. And murdered at least one person in his life. Lead Belly had a reputation for being a very tough fighter, and he was feared around the prison yard. Its also a thing of myth as to how Lead Belly got his name. I guess the most glaring choice would be his last name Ledbetter. That being changed to Lead Belly doesnt take too much imagination, but the name seemed to be created during his prison days. i have also heard stories that he got his name from drinking large amounts of moonshine, or that he was lazy and his belly stick to the floor when he laid down and he never wanted to get back up. I have heard that he got the name from being very tough in the prison yard, and also that hitting his stomach was like hitting lead. Its hard to tell i guess how he got it, but thats how we know him today.
As far as rarity, basically forget about it. I would put him about as rare as Elmore James, maybe slightly rarer. I have ever only seen 3 examples. Two letters, and one a cut signature. I am sure their are others, as Lead Belly lived until 1949, but their owners sure arent letting them go. I do however know that Larry of Mr. Bebop has one, as when i was asking him details about an item i purchased he told me. And its possibly the grand daddy of all LeadBelly autographs. An 8 by 10 photo of Leadbelly autographed and in good condition. Now how is that for rare? I never saw it, but might try and ask him to see if he would post a pic here of it, as it would be amazing to see. As far as price for a Lead Belly, i would say that your probably only going to find them at major auctions, and probably for at least 1000 dollars. Realistically i would guess a cut would go for at least 2000 and something like an 8 by 10 for upwards of 5000. He is that rare and is that popular. I still would search ebay daily though if you are looking for one, as you never know.
The 3 examples i have are basically the same ones who have searched for him have. I cant guarantee either are authentic, but i think the letters are, and i am pretty confident on that. The other i cant tell, it comes from a private collection site, but its worth listing for comparison.
I will see you back tomorrow for some more blues graphs
Here is a letter supposedly in Lead Bellys handwriting. The source on this i cant remember
Here is the cut signature, and i personally believe its authentic, and very rare. a full name signature and nickname.
Here is another letter in Lead Bellys handwriting. This came from an internet auction site
This is the same letter with perhaps a little better clarity
I believe this is an excerpt form the above letter illustrating a close up of Lead Bellys writing
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A couple more for Lead Belly. I think this first one is actually the complete document for the cut shown previously, it sold at Bonhams auction house in 2010 for $610 (a great price if genuine):
The second one is up for auction this month:
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Just found another Lead Belly to add to this list, a wonderful signed bookpage which is also signed by Woody Guthrie and Alan Lomax. Sadly this is not mine (it sold back in 2005 for about $5.5k):
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Another lot for Lead Belly - recently (December 2014) Bonhams sold a 'job lot' of Lead Belly material including a number of signed items: http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21812/lot/191/ it sold for a huge $33,750. Now that probably sounds like a lot of money to you, but when you consider that it contained 15 signed letters and 3 handwritten set-lists plus a number of other items, then you may consider the price not to be too bad. Well now consider that RR Auctions has just sold one of those letters (just one) for an eye-watering $12,327! Now it looks like the person who got this lot from Bonhams got if for a song. Here are some of pics (first the lot from Bonhams then the letter from that lot that RR sold):
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