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Authenticity is Everything
Please help on Michael Jackson signed Thriller
http://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/michael-jackson-thri...
Some members, including myself, thought it was an authentic example of Michael's early-80s autograph. The seller posted this:
"This is Michael Jackson's Thriller album, autographed by Michael. The album and autograph were obtained when I worked at Tower Records on Sunset Blvd. in Hollywood, California, at the time of the album's release. Michael Jackson, who visited the store frequently, was shopping in the store. After helping him with his requests, I pulled a "Thriller" album off of the rack and asked him if he would sign it. He said "sure" and sat down, taking off the shrink wrap and signing it for me in my presence. This was not obtained from a dealer: its provenance is flawless. After thanking him, I took the album to the back room and put shrink wrap around it to prevent any wear and tear to the album cover or the autograph, which was made with a permanent black Sharpee marker. The album has never been played and the album cover and autograph are in excellent condition. Any "cloudy" look to the above picture is due to the layer of protective shrink wrap that I put on it. Exceptional Large Autograph!"
It was not authenticated, but I believe her story very much. It was the only item she was selling. So it's not like she's has some huge inventory of questionable autographs for sale, which can be a red flag. She also said she worked in the entertainment industry for years.
Here's the problem, I paid PSA/DNA for a Quick Opinion which came back "Likely Not Genuine". However, I have personally known people who got in-person autographs that PSA/DNA said were not good, even though they ABSOLUTELY were. I have a friend who did a private signing with Mickey Mantle years ago, and PSA/DNA rejected over 40 Mantle's that she had signed right in front of her!
This MJ Thriller looks really good to me when compared to other vintage MJ autographs, except I don't think he usually dotted the "i". The sharpie ink also looks old to me. But I have seen some Mantle i's dotted and not dotted too.
The thing is if I buy this and then send it in and PSA rejects it even though it is good, that almost renders it worthless.
I would appreciate any and all help and opinions on this. There are pics below.
- Attachments: No photo uploads here
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Paul on
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James how come you never call me? (Smile)
Anyway James, there you go you don't need psa. If I buy nirvana you have to dig the history off the piece unless the person you buy it off has done that for you.
Well done.
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Permalink Reply by James on
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Move to the States, and I'll call you everyday! Or better yet, I'll move to Australia. Sometimes I need a Kangaroo to knock some sense into me! But before I move, please get rid of those giant spiders.
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Once again congratulations on the lp. No sticker is going to make it anymore authentic.
There's some nasty creepy crawlies. Once I seen a 3 Metre brown snake with its head stuck in a coke can going through the tracks to the beach.
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You mean like just detailing my research and how a letter from the original recipient sometimes trumps PSA/DNA?
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Yes. Just obtaining your lp. Whatever you like it's your blog I think it will be a great read.
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Permalink Reply by Randy on
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On the open market in a major auction house, research and notarized statements will never trump PSA/DNA or JSA because without a pass from whichever company they use for authentication, they will not run the item.
Selling to experienced collectors will work without a recognized LOA but they will NEVER pay true market value.
I'm betting you aren't paying market value for this item.
The trick is finding authentic autographs that will pass 3rd party authentication because that is where the money can be made like it or not.
Most collectors on this forum who are experienced are constantly looking for steals because of their knowledge of autographs.
Mickey Mantle unauthenticated autographed baseballs can occasionally be picked up for $200 or less on Ebay. Spend $75 for a JSA LOA and you can sell it for $450 rather easily if the autograph and ball are nice. Try to find a nice one authenticated by JSA for less than $450. It will rarely happen. You might find weak signatures or very toned baseballs for a bargain that are authenticated but not nice white baseballs with strong signatures.
Not a bad profit margin for having a good knowledge of autographs.
For most members here, this is a hobby and they are passionate about it. But I guarantee the reason most hate the forgeries on Ebay is because of the devaluation of their authentic items so in reality monetary value makes a difference to even the most passionate collectors.
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Randy.
Your right.
I love it when artist sign their name in pseudonym or an artist will sign for one off his band mates.
The authenticators are up to speed if john lennon signs for George etc.
I won't stop me collecting because some companies won't pass an item.
It's not all about dollars and cents.
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Randy, I can't disagree with anything you're saying. Hopefully, if I ever submit this to a major TPA, it will pass. And I know you're right that major auction houses, no matter how authentic the item may be, are not going to accept it without a pass from PSA, JSA, or Epperson, Caiazzo, or maybe Perry Cox. So yes, an LOA from a big TPA from that POV does trump a personal letter.
When I say a letter from the original person who got the autograph trumps a big TPA LOA, I just mean from the standpoint of a collector who believes in the original source. If you believe the story of the seller who actually got the autograph, then you believe there's no question you're getting the real deal. Whereas, you know PSA and JSA can make mistakes.
I guess I'm just saying from a personal standpoint, an FPA trumps a TPA - first-person over third-person. But no doubt the resale value is much higher with a PSA/DNA LOA. And yes, I'm getting it definitely below market value.
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I fully understand your position and agree that it is possible for provenance to trump a 3rd party opinion for a collector but most collectors eventually sell some things or either their heirs do.
Right now, PSA/DNA or JSA LOAs sell items because regardless of their true accuracy, hundreds of thousands of collectors blindly accept their LOA as proof an item is authentic.
We all know they make mistakes. They are very good on some autographs and probably very bad on others. We never know who actually looks at the autograph which is bad. They sometimes reverse their own opinions which is problematic.
I have never studied Michael Jackson so my opinion is worthless but on the authenticated ones I have looked at I have not seen the "circled" dot of the "i" so that in itself would deter me but perhaps there are many examples of this dotting of the "i" and I just haven't seen them.
You have a good eye and I am sure have studied Jackson thoroughly so your opinion should be sufficient for your peace of mind.
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Permalink Reply by wascher on
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While your Thriller may check out as legit, be very careful. You should never rely on the "seller" to be telling the truth. There has been fabulous provenance on MJ items (crazy fantastic absolutely cool stories - nothing anyone could even question, because it was spot on believable, and the source was impeccable) - and it turned out the sellers were lying and were the forgers themselves. Again this probably isn't the case in this situation but be aware, if someone forges, they make excellent believable stories as well, and ones that check out. The largest money made to date that I am aware of, of MJ forged items was MJ's own costume designers.... who goofed by adding an extra L in Michael's first name because they didn't know that the big swoop at the end of Michaels name actually IS the L - so there were two L's. He was busted wide open by us when he signed an item that was made after MJ died and the manuf of that item stated the same. But nothing of course was done about it legally because Juliens buried that item fast (pulled it and more than likely destroyed it because they were involved in the cover up as well). They and the designers made MILLIONS off those sales. He (the forger) hasn't since forged on anything that I can see (he had a specific way of signing).... but he is now auctioning things thru Juliens again (clothing said to be Michaels).... of course since he created the originals, it isn't hard to make more....$$ This is all just a word of caution.
And again if you are happy with this Thriller - that is wonderful for you. :) That is the important part.
-w
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