Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on November 29, 2011 at 4:31pm

I don't know much about them, but here's a "Meet the Beatles" album recently removed by eBay that was authenticated and appraised for $75,000-$95,000 by AMA, and authenticated by PAAS. The $75,000-$95,000 range is about what a decent genuine one is worth, but when eBay pulled this one, the high bid was about $350. I think that says it all. Here are the signatures and the papers:

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on December 3, 2011 at 12:17pm

The appraisal listed the country of origin of the "Meet the Beatles" album as the UK, but it's well-known to be the first Beatles album released in the US (Capitol Records), and says US on the jacket. Rather telling of their lack of expertise. 

Is there even ONE forensic document examiner that specializes in autographs that isn't incompetent or a criminal?

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on January 21, 2012 at 11:27am

Mike Frost of PAAS contacted me and said that they never certified this Beatles album:

Mr, Cyrkin.
I would appreciate you handling this matter with honesty.
The blog and information once again on your website is incorrect. This P.A.A.S. letter of authenticity on this Beatles album is a fake as well as the signatures. P.A.A.S. has never issued this certificate of authenticity and I do not have an idea who the other COA was issued from. In fact I was involved in having this item removed from eBay for using a fake P.A.A.S. certificate.You may not be interested but I can tell you that issues like this and your lack of knowledge about P.A.A.S. and our services are helping these items exist. There are 100's of fake P.A.A.S. , JSA, GA, and PSA/DNA now entering the marketplace. I have already meet with law enforcement and there is some action already in progress. If you see the current auction on this MEET THE BEATLES signed record, you will see there is no P.A.A.S. certificate attached. Can you please remove the P.A.A.S. certificate from you blog or mention that this is not an authentic P.A.A.S. Certificate of Authenticity. Also any item we certify would also have a matching numbered hologram.
Your understanding on this matter may save innocent buyers $1000's of dollars.
Thank you
Michael Frost.
P.A.A.S.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Rowlands on January 21, 2012 at 11:48am

If these signatures are authentic(ated), and it is indeed valued at $75k to $95k, I'd expect it to show up at Julien's or whatnot, not a local mom & pop with an internet presence.

The current auction house emailed me, giving their explanation of why it was pulled from eBay etc...

On 1/21/2012 1:25 PM, bidpioneer wrote:

That is the same album, we had it listed on Ebay. It was pulled because Ebay only has 2 people that they use for authentications. These 2 people they use are a joke because they pay Ebay big money to be this list. James Spence the main person they use is terrible, google his name and you will see that he is very incompetent and has many law suits against him. He even verified a signature of a boxer who was later found out that he could not read or write.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on January 22, 2012 at 10:27pm

What do you know—the classic forgery seller's excuse. JSA and PSA/DNA pay-off eBay which is why their signed Beatles album got bounced. Or they're not impartial. Or they're not "court-approved" forensic document examiners, so their authentications don't count.

But what that doesn't address is why a signed "Meet the Beatles" album went for $63,000 last May at Case Auctions, an antique and art auction house, without any authentication. 

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Permalink Reply by E.B.G. on January 22, 2012 at 12:05pm

Why fake a PAAS cert? I'm not following here.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on January 22, 2012 at 1:07pm

There are 100's of fake P.A.A.S. , JSA, GA, and PSA/DNA now entering the marketplace.

I'd like more info on this. I heard of the news reports of the fake PSA letter with the Babe Ruth balls in Florida. I've seen no other reports of additional cases of this happening.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on January 22, 2012 at 1:27pm

I've seen several fake PSA/DNA and Frank Caiazzo letters. Or things like albums where they take, say, a Roger Waters signed album that's PSA/DNA certified and add the other Pink Floyd autographs. You're more likely to find that going on with COAs than LOAs, since they don't image the COAs. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I think it's ridiculous that PSA and JSA don't take an image of every item and put them in the online database. It doesn't make sense.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on January 22, 2012 at 1:30pm

You mean because it's like counterfeiting pesos instead of dollars?

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Permalink Reply by Steve on January 22, 2012 at 5:59pm

Steve,

I'm not sure how Michael Frost can accuse you of being dishonest when you have a copy of the PAAS certification shown.  He may claim that they didn't authenticate it and it's fake, but how are you to know?  He should be thanking you for making him aware of fake LOA's bearing his companies name.  How does a lack of knowledge about his company change the fact that whomever produced this certificate chose PAAS as the authenticator, not you!

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Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on January 22, 2012 at 7:13pm

Right. Some strange logic at work... someone is supposed to know fake PAAS certs are in circulation.??? If this is a issue known by PAAS, have they issued a press release to alert the community?

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on January 22, 2012 at 10:59pm

I don't think the PAAS COA is fake. Looks exactly like his, from the letter itself, to the font, the signature and the seal.

And as E.B.G. inferred, why would you fake a PAAS LOA anyway? 

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