Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by a pug called eva on April 24, 2018 at 8:34am

I wonder if this issue could be resolved by using the forums in a more structured way.

When I see historical figures, be they "good" or "bad", posted alongside rock stars and the like it makes me wince. Discussing the autographs of people like Adolf Hitler, Ghandi and Martin Luther King alongside the autographs of Joey Ramone, Michael Jackson and Bon Scott seems inappropriate. Why not post authenticity questions on the first three to the "Historical" forum and the other three to the "Music" forum? 

In fact, I have often wondered why we even need an "Authenticity Opinions" forum. I am sure that it takes a lot of interest away from the specifc subject forums. I for one hardly ever look at any forums other than "Authenticity Opinions", "Town Square", "Beatles" and "Music: Rock, Blues, Jazz". I also often wonder why I bother to look at the last of those as it rarely has any posts other than ones relating to artists selling their autographs "in store".   

Getting back to the original post here, I have to say that the signature itself looks a lot like a stamped or printed signature to me. Obviously it is hard to tell under the glass. I am also not sure that a stamped autograph would include a place and date.  

Speaking personally, I would think there would be much less risk of glorifying people like Hitler if posts relating to such people were only allowed to include images of the autograph itself. To give an opinion on the autograph we don't need to see Hitler's face and his Nazi uniform. I think TradeGeek made a good point when he said that Nazi symbolism is still being used to incite racial hatred. Why show a swastika if if is not relevant to the authenticity opinion? 

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Permalink Reply by Bjorn VDB on April 24, 2018 at 9:00am

Why do I collect music autographs? Because I love the artist and his/her music.

Why do people collect autographs of actors? Because they love the movie.

Autographs are about the emotion behind it. 

Now why would someone collect autographs of Hitler? I honestly don’t have a clue.

It has got nothing to do with historical relevant reasons. Why would it be relevant to have a Hitler autograph in your closet at home? Let alone hanging it on your wall. We don’t need his autograph to understand history. Why would you need his autograph in history lessons as a teacher? I am very interested in history too and I watch lots of documentaries. I don’t see an autograph as a part to learn history.

They might belong in a museum that shows all the evil from the nazi’s, along with all the other gadgets and symbols. Why would someone outside a museum and thus not for scientific reasons be interested in a Hitler autograph being genuine or not? I really don’t have a clue.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on April 24, 2018 at 9:17am

I've decided: I'm going to only allow them in a private group for now. Since I can't move discussions to different groups, I'll leave the few on the site in forums, but close the discussions—besides this one, since it's been an important one.

There are very few, though, since I usually delete them when I see them and notify the member who posted the discussion.

Goodcat, thank you for taking the lead in this valuable discussion.

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Permalink Reply by goodcat on April 24, 2018 at 1:36pm

Thank you Steve and thank you to the folks who commented.

I believe both sides of this case have been well presented. Enough so that I am very satisfied with the decision of a private group. A private group will still be monitored so I don't think there is any risk of it becoming a breeding ground for hate minded people. Lunatics might be a better description. 

This is a very passionate subject and trust me, I understand both sides very well (on a personal level). And I have the deepest empathy for those directly affected. 

I've held my tongue as to why I think some folks (including myself) would like to own a AH signature, because as Steve has requested, this is not meant to be a discussion about the man behind horror. It is simply about a signature. 

And obviously if things get out of hand in that private group, it can be removed at any time. I will definitely be a member of that group and gladly report to Steve any unwarranted posts. Keep it academic and I know it's difficult to separate the passions. But judging by the responses here, I see that it probably will be a healthy group. 

Cheers

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Permalink Reply by goodcat on April 24, 2018 at 3:11pm

This might be unpopular but I decided to state my case.

Every single comment here mentions the horrific acts by a monster. This is what we can ALL agree on.

NOW... let's look at the other side and this will give you a clue as to why I WOULD own a AH signature. 

This is in NO WAY meant to glorify or let us forget the atrocities commited, but it does help people understand the historical significance of Hitler and Nazi Germany and a place for his signature among a collection.

Hitler built an empire from the ashes of an old one. His achievements, actions and ambitions were great and terrible. Some considered him to be evil. Others, a genius. His achievements are overshadowed by his evil acts. 

• Antisemitism was rampant in Europe for at least a thousand years. Hitler's holocaust forced the West to face up to the logical consequences of this hateful belief. Since WWII antisemitism is no longer respectable. Antisemitism still exists but it has been forced underground. Fringe elements still rally around anti-Semitism.

• His ambition and power speed up technological developments in all areas, in particular nuclear research, jet engines, rockets and medicine.
• Hitler restored the Germany economy and brought the nation to full employment. He practiced Keynesian economic theory, which is basically deficit spending to fund large public works projects and infuse capital into the economy.
• Designed by Hitler as the German equivalent to the Model T, it was meant to allow everyday Germans the chance of car ownership. Introduced Volkswagen.

The Reichsautobahn system was the beginning of the German autobahns under the Third Reich. There had been previous plans for controlled-access highways in Germany under the Weimar Republic, and two had been built, but long-distance highways had not been successfully built. After previously opposing plans for a highway network, the Nazis embraced them after coming to power and presented the project as Hitler's own idea

Computers – due to the German Enigma machine, the British had to develop, computer in order to help break their code. This they did with the use of bombes, which are the building block of all technology
Transport – WW2 develop all sorts of transports. The biggest development in the are of planes. At the beginning of the war, planes were still not very well developed. At the end they were faster, stronger, and able to carry vast amount of equipment. As a result it allowed for faster transport over longer periods. 
Medicine – because of the vast amount of research placed into caring for soldiers, this spilled into the civilian world now. 
Weapons research – At the beginning of the war, the Nuclear weapons were thought of. Then they became a reality. Not only that but it develop things like radar technology, which helped track planes and so on, it helped with.

Some of the huge and massive concrete/rebar constructions have still not been rivaled to this day in the speed they were built. His underground constructions for airplane's and such are still very impressive structures and those ideas still remain high in regards to spectacular feats. 

Yes we know what a crazed lunatic he was, but there is also an element of high intelligence about him.

I hope you learned something here. 

I'm sure Cogo in his respected profession understands my point.

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Permalink Reply by Joe W. on April 24, 2018 at 3:19pm

Hitler was evil. Doesn't matter what else he was. He should be remembered for the horrible atrocities committed by his government and those who followed his philosophy. I would not possess his autograph if it was given to me. I would burn it.

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Permalink Reply by goodcat on April 24, 2018 at 3:32pm

And that's the beauty of living in a democracy.

Each of us has the choice of Freewill

But the significance of WWII will never be forgotten in the world's eyes....EVER!!!!!

I knew my post would stir the pot and it's exactly why I didn't post it before. But I strongly feel/think it needs to be added to give this discussion a more rounded and complete perspective. Academically speaking of course.

And again, I KNOW how hard it is to separate our passions on this subject. Trust me, I've had a lifetime of debates on this topic and that's why I take this thread so seriously

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Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on April 24, 2018 at 3:49pm

I certanly wouldn't want one, but don't see a problem with allowing discussions that are limited to his signature. That's easy to ignore, especially if it's done within a private group.

FYI, the 2012 Leaf Oval Office series included a Hitler signature together with an FDR signature. Someone paid $1,500 not knowing exactly what they purchased, and that's what they received.

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Permalink Reply by Joe W. on April 24, 2018 at 3:56pm

Discussions about his autograph is fine. As you can see, people tend not to limit their discussion to that. Just because I would never collect  Hitler does not mean that I desire to stop others from doing so. I cherish freedom. Hitler did not.

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Permalink Reply by posterguy on April 24, 2018 at 4:57pm

Rwanda '94 was pretty bad as well when it comes to mass murder : 1 mill killed in 100 days

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Permalink Reply by goodcat on April 24, 2018 at 5:13pm

I worked with a Rwandan man who lived through it. He survived but his immediate family didn't. 

We should not try to sidetrack the main issue here. 

This is already a very touchy subject and adding unnecessary data to the fire can only upset people more. 

I'm looking forward the start of the private group, although I don't know how active it will be. I imagine the rules will be fairly strict. But I am curious as to what names will be included. 

Who should be on this list? I suppose that's a question that needs to be addressed. And where does the line get drawn?

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Permalink Reply by a pug called eva on April 24, 2018 at 9:59pm

Now that a decision has been made about the posting of Nazi-related autographs (of which there are many more than just Hitler of course) can we get back to the question raised in the original post?

In my view the signature looks as if it could be printed or stamped. The "H" in particular looks strangely light at the centre of the pen strokes and the signature as a whole seems very flat. There are also no ink blobs or smudges at all as far as I can see. Considering that the paper is almost certainly glossy this is surprising.

The postcard seems to have been produced by a film studio and it seems more than possible that cards with facsimilie signatures could have been issued to promote a propoganda film. 

The price paid also seems suspiciously low, even for 10 years ago. I'm sure a signed photo of this sort would have been $5,000+ even in those days. Obviously you can get autograph bargains at places like flea markets but I would think nearly everyone would know that this piece would have a market value well in excess of $1,000.  

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