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Autographs and authenticity

I'm looking to get some opinions on this.  My grandparents ran an auction barn and antique store in the 50s-80s.  When they passed, my father kept some of the cool stuff, which included cut signatures from sports figures like Ruth, Gehrig, etc.  Nothing was authenticated.  He passed away last year and I now own them.  In doing my research on authentication, I believe this industry is almost counter-productive.  Here's why:


1) My father got three or four of them authenticated.  He went to some of the lesser known companies because he was, well, cheap.  They came back authentic.  These are companies on the banned Ebay list and that have been run down on here.  After doing my research, I've come to the conclusion I'm better off selling them as is with the authentication I have then to spend more money to have JSA or PSA authenticate them too, or, in the worst case scenario, have them found to be fake.


2)  I own a ton of autographs, some I know are real because of in-person signings and such, others that are questionable.  Why would I want to spend $200 to have a Ruth autograph looked at?  If it comes back a fake, I'm out $200.  I could sell it now as is and make money, without anyone ever knowing if it's real or fake until someone pays to have it authenticated themselves. 

It seems to me that if the industry wanted to get rid of fakes, it would offer cheaper fees if the item comes up fake.  And with JSA and PSA also known to have made mistakes in the past, who says either one is even right when they make a decision on my items.  Again, I'm posting this not because I want to rip someone off.  I want to understand why in the world it makes sense for me to risk paying $2,000 to get 20 autographs looked at when they could all be fake and I'm out $2,000?  All I'd have to do is put them up on Craigslist for sale, or a local auction, and make money  and move on. 

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on August 8, 2012 at 4:04pm

Why don't you post the Ruth and some of the others here and find out if they're likely genuine or not?

Permalink Reply by Darrin Willhite on August 8, 2012 at 4:20pm

Well, that's another question.  If I jump on here and everyone says they're fake, then I probably don't get them authenticated.  And if I sell them after that, I'm just as a big an a-hole the guys who forged them in the first place.  If I put them up and people say they're real, I may send them in, or sell them as is, and again, if they're not, I'm out money.  I guess what I was trying to say in the first post is given what I've read on here as well as other articles online, it almost makes more sense for an owner not to know.  He can sell them in clear conscience and made money in the process.  I'm trying to see the downside to that.  Also, with everyone running down many of the other companies, are we not ruining the industry for someone who may have bought or sent an autograph to one of these companies?  Why would they trust someone else?  Why would they spend the money to get a second authentication with the chance it's coming back fake?  Lots of questions, I know.  I'm sorry about that.  I'm just trying to make sense out of a system that to me seems senseless.  I collect cards and the grading system there is pretty simple---it's cheap, and you know the upside of selling with and without the grading.  With autographs, it seems to me there's not a whole lot of upside.

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on August 8, 2012 at 4:26pm

Because you can probably find out easily here if they're likely good or not, for no cost, decency says you should. It's only right. Besides, if you sell them and they turn out bad, you might have to give the money back anyway. 

Permalink Reply by CJCollector on August 8, 2012 at 4:22pm

I had to read the above thread twice to truly understand it.

So tell us, Darrin, if you discover they are fakes, what do you intend to do with them?

Permalink Reply by Darrin Willhite on August 8, 2012 at 4:35pm

Well, that's the dilemma isn't it?  Integrity vs. the almighty dollar.  It's kind of like religion.  If someday we prove God doesn't exist, are we better off ruining the lives of billions of people or better off not knowing and letting everyone believe what they believe.  I know you would like me to destroy them if I find out they're fake.  And I would.  But if I don't find out, why would that make me a bad person to simply sell them to someone else who wants them and believes them to be real?  Don't we both win in that scenario?  If these auction houses you talk about on here sell unauthenticated autos, does that make them bad people?  Why should they pay for authentication? 

Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on August 8, 2012 at 4:44pm
The rationale here is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to begin.

If the items are fakes, they are worthless and it would be unethical to sell them.

If they are real, credible authentication will pay for itself 20 times over.
Permalink Reply by CJCollector on August 8, 2012 at 4:49pm

Now you know why I had to read it twice, Mr. Zipper.

Permalink Reply by Darrin Willhite on August 8, 2012 at 5:04pm

But what's credible authentication?  From what I've read, everyone has committed some form of bad authentication, including Spence, who is considered one of the good ones.  That's what I'm getting at.  What makes him, or Drew Max, or anyone on here any better or worse, and where's the proof they are right or wrong?  I read the post on here from the guy who bought the 1939 HOF induction ceremony program supposedly signed by the first class.  If he paid a lot for it, and it comes with authentication, why should he lose the money because the authenticator is shady?  My guess is the auction house won't give him the money back.  So, in adding it up, I'm supposed to pay money to someone who may or may not be right, on an item that may or may not be fake, because it's the decent thing to do?  Giving the panhandler I pass every morning the $200 would also be decent, but it doesn't mean I'm going to do it.  Again, my point is, if they are fake, I will destroy them.  No questions asked.  But why would I want to PAY someone to tell me they're fake?  "Hey, thanks for the $200.  These are worthless.  Good luck."  Again, seems to me it's counterproductive.  Seems to me if you want to keep the integrity of the industry, there would be some way to figure out if they are real or fake without me paying to do so or trusting the free advice of people here who obviously believe they know what they're doing while ripping licensed authenticators who supposedly know nothing.  If you are good, Chris, (I loved it when you used my first name in the first post, letting me know you're response was dripping with contempt.), why not open your own business and run the bad guys out?  Why do it for free?  Again, I'm not trying to get in a huge philosophical debate here.  But so far, no one has convinced me it's in MY best interest to spend money to get authenticated.

Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on August 8, 2012 at 5:16pm
All authenticators make mistakes, however clearly some have much better track records than others and therefore are accepted by the market at large as credible.

A Ruth cut from an unknown seller with no credible authentication will get pennies on the dollar compared to a PSA or JSA certified Ruth. The $200 authentication will pay for itself a least 10 times over. And you will know you sold someone an authentic item, not a worthless fake.

That's what's in it for you.
Permalink Reply by Darrin Willhite on August 8, 2012 at 5:26pm

And if it's fake I will get $200 worth of satisfaction knowing I'm not ripping someone off?  When was the last time you spent $200 to get....nothing?

Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on August 8, 2012 at 5:36pm
Sometimes you gotta pay to play.

You can list them as being of unknown authenticity with no guarantee and no refund and maybe someone will roll the dice and you'll get a few bucks. But if you really thought they were likely authentic, wouldn't you want to pay the $200 to maximize your profit? $3000 sure sounds a lot better than maybe $500.

Given your hesitation, my sense is you don't have much confidence in them being authentic.
Permalink Reply by Darrin Willhite on August 8, 2012 at 5:42pm

Actually, I have no idea.  Not a clue.  To be honest, I thought they were real since several of them are authenticated.  But after hearing everyone rip on the authenticators on here, I'm second guessing.  My point is, I'm not willing to roll the dice and spend let's say, $2000 to find out about 20 autographs if they turn out to be fake.  I'd rather spend that money at the poker table. When 70% of the autos out there from the Ruths and Gehrigs are fake....that's a house bet. 

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