Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Fuddjcal on April 8, 2015 at 8:41am

Here's a great rule of thumb to follow....ZERO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Permalink Reply by a pug called eva on April 8, 2015 at 9:40am

I fully agree that you cannot blindly trust a provenance story and the autograph has to hold up by itself - unless there are very good and verifiable reasons why it is not "typical" (e.g. signed on a beer bottle label).

That being said, how can you completely ignore provenance? I was trained to be sceptical about anything and everything but the average person would go crazy if they were so sceptical that they couldn't believe anything. Taking things to extremes, you could even argue that witnessing something yourself is no good - just think what magicians are capable of! 

I cannot agree with Mike T that provenance is irrelevant to desirability and value. I would far rather have an autograph with provenance than one without and I'm sure 95%+ of other collectors would too. Obviously the provenance has to worth it's name - e.g. "Abbey Road LP, believed to have been signed at the Abbey Road Studios in 1970" wouldn't cut it. 

It is difficult to say what additional value excellent provenance provides but, taking Paul's example, a set of Beatles autographs signed when they were on the Ed Sullivan Show has to be worth a whole lot more than a normal stagedoor example from a run-of-the-mill gig. I agree that there would have to be something that really links it to the show and for that it might have to be a different type of item anyway - e.g. a signed call sheet rather than a blank album page.     

A note to Alan -  were there any particular highlights in the collections you bought? 

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Permalink Reply by Mike T on April 8, 2015 at 9:51am

Why do people purchase autographs that aren't typical examples?  That makes zero sense to me.  Then you are completely relying on someone's story which is a terrible idea IMO, plus resell value is out the window.

I think you need to define what you think provenance is first, to me it has to be concrete and irrefutable, which I think is insanely difficult to provide and very rare to find.  Most "provenance" is just a story that makes people feel better and has very little to tie it to a physical item.  I would challenge anyone here to find a piece with actual provenance that can't be refuted in some way.

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Permalink Reply by alan horowitz on April 8, 2015 at 10:30am

You can refute almost anything but I love Postmarked items, either letters with envelopes or GPC's. Anything from over 50 years ago sent bthis way is almost impossible to duplicate.

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Permalink Reply by Mike T on April 8, 2015 at 11:42am

How do postmarked envelopes prove the autograph is authentic?  How do you prove the autograph came in that envelope?  The majority of vintage autographs obtained TTM were secretarials, I'm sure they came in postmarked envelopes too.

I think you are right that it helps, but I wouldn't consider it good provenance for the autograph.

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Permalink Reply by alan horowitz on April 8, 2015 at 10:27am

some highlights include marilyn Monroe, Elvis, Babe Ruth, 3 Stooges, John Wayne, Paul Newman, Bogart, Jimmy Stewart, Lucy Ball, Marlon Brando Many other rare ones

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Permalink Reply by alan horowitz on April 8, 2015 at 10:48am

 What I am getting from the answers to my question is showing a glaring misunderstanding of what provenance is.  As a long time buyer of collections My opinion is not so much the story but more who is selling collection, what the collection includes and history of collection. As an example if I was buying vintage baseball cards and someone brings me a shoebox filled with cards from 1955 and 1956 and there are loads of commons and some stars I wouldnt have to look close to know that they are real and not todays counterfeits. If some brings me a collection of cards from 2006 - 2012 and there are 6 vintage stars all looking perfect I would examine those cards under a microscope to make sure they are real. With Autographs if i am buying a collection from the president of Columbia records and he is selling stuff off his wall I wouldnt think twice about it but if someone comes to me and says he got it from the president of columbia records it wouldn't mean anything to me but a story. I dont buy single pieces so I am not interested in looking at so called in person photo or similar that is not provenance. Provenance is the history of a collection and must remain consistent for the story to be real. Now when you buy a collection there might be a secretarial or clubhouse auto you still know that what you are buying is a rightous collection.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on April 8, 2015 at 11:43am

Exactly, Alan. It's the documentable history of the piece.

In my case, the Pacino piece came from Larry Grobel, an author, journalist and a friend of Al's, who wrote books and articles on Pacino and got a ton of things signed by him over the years. He was a regular Playboy Interview writer, and wrote something like 50 articles or more for Autograph Collector/Autograph Magazine. He's a good friend of mine, and he's shown me a ton of things he had Al sign over the years. HIs site is www.lawrencegrobel.com.

Just some story about where something came from, even with documentation that doesn't clearly prove it, isn't provenance.

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Permalink Reply by Paul on April 8, 2015 at 5:46pm

That correct documentable history of the piece. Not a ebay item with a photo. I read Roger Epperson post, he said if he sees a signed ebay item with a photo the credibility goes about 90 percent.

One of my autographs is from a journalist also an author the blokes work is in art galleries from time to time newspapers at another time.

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Permalink Reply by Rock G III on April 8, 2015 at 12:10pm

And outside of you that "provenance" holds little to no value. Even the president of Columbia record can get ripped off or get a secretarial.  So after the original person tells this story its just that.  A story with little to no value. What if the president of Columbia though his artist sent him 500 autographs to be sent out to record stores but none made it so now because they come from the president of columbia they are real? What happens if a roadie signed them and sent them off (I have seen roadies sign as musicians). So now what about the provenance? 

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Permalink Reply by James on April 8, 2015 at 11:29am

One thing I think provenance (or at least the story behind the item) does is that it can add a certain "value" to the item, possibly monetarily but certainly intrinsicly. And I'm saying this may occur after the item is authenticated. Let's say an item has been authenticated by PSA/DNA or JSA. If you couple their certification with nice provenance (in this case, a interesting story of how the autograph was acquired), I think it can make the item more desirable, hence more salable.

Certainly, the story behind my JFK book made me want it even more. If possible, I like to know where and when, especially with an historical piece. Plus, it's hard to imagine someone is going to choose a nice midwestern university as their background story - Harvard (JFK's alma mater) would sound more exciting to a lot of people. Even though I completely believe the story, I did get a PSA/DNA quick opinion, which came back "Likely Authentic", before I bought it.

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Permalink Reply by James on April 8, 2015 at 11:46am

Oh, and I forgot to add one other thing. The woman who obtained JFK's autograph also appeared with it on Antiques Roadshow. I have her two tickets from the event as well, although I have not seen the video of it.

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