Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by a pug called eva on August 10, 2017 at 10:11pm

Just to be clear and to use a rather pompous word for someone who is not an expert, I have not "opined" one way or the other on authenticity.

As I said in my last post, I think the signature itself has its plus points but I have not seen anything quite as flamboyant as this from George and would be interested to see other similar examples.

The menu date thing is a concern too but I wouldn't have started this thread just to discuss that.

Anybody have a similarly bold/loose Harrison? 

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Permalink Reply by Paul on August 10, 2017 at 10:17pm

Thorsten has a large file of harrisons, but he isnt around at the moment.

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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on August 12, 2017 at 11:10pm

OK. Let's say George boards a little earlier - say for discussion on the 10th for a crossing. He is now supposedly presented with a menu of the same age as in this post - but now it says August and is from a previous crossing...now what? Same time passed...

I also note, FWIW, the inscription is written faster ands less legible than the signature. Perhaps odd. 

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Permalink Reply by a pug called eva on August 13, 2017 at 12:44am

I wrote to the seller again and he/she is going to be "digging in boxes" this weekend to see if there is more information on this particular cruise. Presumably he or she inherited this and a load of other things from the waiter concerned (assuming the story is true).

Somehow the start price of £1.500 suggests that the seller knows a real Harrison would not be cheap but a professional dealer or con artist would probably not set the start price that high.

I was trying to find a similar Harrison the other day and came across this old thread which also discussed both the autograph and the item signed. It is a very long thread and gets very personal but it brought back fond memories(Steve may not agree on this). It also highlights the potential danger of analysing autographs too scientifically:

http://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/george-harrison-real...

 

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Permalink Reply by KarlKeaton on August 13, 2017 at 1:03am

You're on the QE 2 and in circumstances unknown to us you see George Harrison. You'd like to take the opportunity to get his autograph and have the forsight to want it on something relevant to the encounter. You grab a QE 2 menu that just happens to be around and it happens to be 6-20 odd days old (Some sources say he boarded 8th September, another says 22nd September). Is that really so unbelievable?

If you think that it is hard to believe that a QE 2 menu would be lying around for days then how does it fit in with your theory that the item might have been lying around and purchased decades later with the fraudulent intent of forging his autograph on it?

With all respect, I think that you are over thinking the role of the 'story' behind the signature and under thinking the likelihood (IMO) that it is a genuine autograph.

Provenance is important and can really add to an items value but surely the authenticity or otherwise of the autograph should be the main concern? Stories can be embellished or even invented in a second.

All I'm saying is that getting an opinion from a respected source might be a better approach than picking holes in the story, at least in this case.

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Permalink Reply by a pug called eva on August 13, 2017 at 2:00am

Hi Karl

The item ends today so "the end is nigh" in any event.

As I've said, I'm more interested in the signature than the menu date, although a potentially inconsistent date obviously makes "getting happy" with the signature all the more important.

I started the discussion because I thought this was a highly unusual Harrison and had an usual story behind it - so it would be an interesting item to discuss. I was not looking for free authentication or looking to bid on it (the start price being very "full" in itself).

What I really hoped to see were a few similar large and flamboyant examples from people's collections or exemplar libraries but so far nothing has been forthcoming. I understand that some people are away. Some more info on Harrison's sailing dates and confirmation that he was aboard on the menu date would have been a bonus of course.

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Permalink Reply by KarlKeaton on August 13, 2017 at 2:21am

Sure, it is a bit unusual, the Harrison looks like his signature from later years but my opinion is still that it is genuine.

It is true that new forgery styles are often only discovered by questioning minds and this forum has helped a great many people in detecting forgeries but my concern was that this discussion might equally spoil the sale of a perfectly good item if it was read by an interested party.

Some of his signatures were more flamboyant than others, this one is rushed but still has many positive traits.

I think it shares a few things with this signature that isn't rushed at all.

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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on August 13, 2017 at 9:13am

"You grab a QE 2 menu that just happens to be around and it happens to be 6-20 odd days old (Some sources say he boarded 8th September, another says 22nd September). Is that really so unbelievable?"

Many liner folk think so. Esp if a three week discrepancy. Again the dedication is much faster than the slower legible signature with more ink. Just my .02.

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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on August 13, 2017 at 9:44am

I should mention, for perspective, that the vast majority of excess menus bearing that earlier date from a previous crossing in the other direction would have been long discarded by the 8th/22nd (apart from those saved by passengers and sold thses days by dealers). They were literally worthless to crew. New ones every day. As for the forger question - I would expect this from a half decent forger. For me anyway, that date is a pink flag. And until a satisfactory answer is found re this date discrepancy, it will always beg that question, to some at least. And...who needs that? 

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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on August 13, 2017 at 8:33pm

Could it not be seen as likely that George would have signed his own menu of the day?

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Permalink Reply by Woody2Shoes on August 13, 2017 at 9:32pm

It's a 45 year old menu from a famous ship and it's collectible in and of itself, there are people who collect and buy these without any forethoughts of ink. But there are those that scour selections of ephemera for pieces that COULD be signed by a money player like a Beatle or Elvis. If you were to scour ebay for postcards, old receipts, playbills, old used tickets, etc., etc., I'll wager you could find dozens of pieces that a Beatle, or Elvis, or Ruth, or Gehrig, or Monroe could have very well signed. Just like this menu. Nobody had to keep it for 45 years, thinking all that time, "Some day I'll sign George Harrison on it and cash in". If this was reverse engineered, someone saw this menu someplace, had a feeling or knew a Beatle was or could have been on it, bought it cheap, and then did their R&D. This is really easily do-able. Have some fun. Try it yourself. Hit ebay pumping. Google the Yankee schedule for 1932 and see where they played on which dates. Then go to work looking for pieces that Ruth could have signed. Look for bar matches, a napkin from a hotel, a coaster from a restaurant or a menu, a letterhead from a children's hospital, the more ambitious the better, this is how forgers work, this is how the masters spin straw into gold.

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Permalink Reply by a pug called eva on August 13, 2017 at 9:58pm

Well there were no bids and I heard no more from the seller. The fact that I heard no more doesn't necessarily mean much but if I were the seller and someone showed interest in a £1,500 item by sending two inquiries I would have at least sent a note saying that I had not been able to find out any more and explaining a bit more of the background (even if only that it had come in a banana box of personal effects from a local house clearance or auction).

If I do here more I'll pass it on. Meanwhile, if someone does have similar examples to this one do post them please. 

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