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Authenticity is Everything
Please help on Michael Jackson signed Thriller
I would really appreciate help from my friends on AML. Back on August 15th, there was a discussion about a Michael Jackson signed "Thriller" album:
http://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/michael-jackson-thri...
Some members, including myself, thought it was an authentic example of Michael's early-80s autograph. The seller posted this:
"This is Michael Jackson's Thriller album, autographed by Michael. The album and autograph were obtained when I worked at Tower Records on Sunset Blvd. in Hollywood, California, at the time of the album's release. Michael Jackson, who visited the store frequently, was shopping in the store. After helping him with his requests, I pulled a "Thriller" album off of the rack and asked him if he would sign it. He said "sure" and sat down, taking off the shrink wrap and signing it for me in my presence. This was not obtained from a dealer: its provenance is flawless. After thanking him, I took the album to the back room and put shrink wrap around it to prevent any wear and tear to the album cover or the autograph, which was made with a permanent black Sharpee marker. The album has never been played and the album cover and autograph are in excellent condition. Any "cloudy" look to the above picture is due to the layer of protective shrink wrap that I put on it. Exceptional Large Autograph!"
It was not authenticated, but I believe her story very much. It was the only item she was selling. So it's not like she's has some huge inventory of questionable autographs for sale, which can be a red flag. She also said she worked in the entertainment industry for years.
Here's the problem, I paid PSA/DNA for a Quick Opinion which came back "Likely Not Genuine". However, I have personally known people who got in-person autographs that PSA/DNA said were not good, even though they ABSOLUTELY were. I have a friend who did a private signing with Mickey Mantle years ago, and PSA/DNA rejected over 40 Mantle's that she had signed right in front of her!
This MJ Thriller looks really good to me when compared to other vintage MJ autographs, except I don't think he usually dotted the "i". The sharpie ink also looks old to me. But I have seen some Mantle i's dotted and not dotted too.
The thing is if I buy this and then send it in and PSA rejects it even though it is good, that almost renders it worthless.
I would appreciate any and all help and opinions on this. There are pics below.
http://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/michael-jackson-thri...
Some members, including myself, thought it was an authentic example of Michael's early-80s autograph. The seller posted this:
"This is Michael Jackson's Thriller album, autographed by Michael. The album and autograph were obtained when I worked at Tower Records on Sunset Blvd. in Hollywood, California, at the time of the album's release. Michael Jackson, who visited the store frequently, was shopping in the store. After helping him with his requests, I pulled a "Thriller" album off of the rack and asked him if he would sign it. He said "sure" and sat down, taking off the shrink wrap and signing it for me in my presence. This was not obtained from a dealer: its provenance is flawless. After thanking him, I took the album to the back room and put shrink wrap around it to prevent any wear and tear to the album cover or the autograph, which was made with a permanent black Sharpee marker. The album has never been played and the album cover and autograph are in excellent condition. Any "cloudy" look to the above picture is due to the layer of protective shrink wrap that I put on it. Exceptional Large Autograph!"
It was not authenticated, but I believe her story very much. It was the only item she was selling. So it's not like she's has some huge inventory of questionable autographs for sale, which can be a red flag. She also said she worked in the entertainment industry for years.
Here's the problem, I paid PSA/DNA for a Quick Opinion which came back "Likely Not Genuine". However, I have personally known people who got in-person autographs that PSA/DNA said were not good, even though they ABSOLUTELY were. I have a friend who did a private signing with Mickey Mantle years ago, and PSA/DNA rejected over 40 Mantle's that she had signed right in front of her!
This MJ Thriller looks really good to me when compared to other vintage MJ autographs, except I don't think he usually dotted the "i". The sharpie ink also looks old to me. But I have seen some Mantle i's dotted and not dotted too.
The thing is if I buy this and then send it in and PSA rejects it even though it is good, that almost renders it worthless.
I would appreciate any and all help and opinions on this. There are pics below.
- Attachments: No photo uploads here
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by James on
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Randy, I understand your concern about the circle-dotted "i". In the beginning, it was really the only thing that concerned me. The "Michael" part looks very strong besides the circle dot. And the "Jackson" looks pretty good. The part of the "J" that curves left then right from the top is seen on occasion in several examples. Most of the time it's not there, but sometimes it is. And on some of the vintage examples, he closed the "a" and sometimes he did not. And sometimes he made the "s", and sometimes he did not. So to me the only question would be that circle dot, but everything else checks out, including everything in the seller's background.
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You're right about the LP. As for those creepy crawlers, YIKES! I'm not a big fan of snakes or spiders. Once about 10 years ago, I was at a lake and about 30 feet in front of me a six-foot long black snake slithered by. I don't know if it was poisonous, but I didn't want to find out!
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Wascher, so this is how much I value your opinion. The first thing I do after reading your post is to go back and look on this Thriller for two "L"s! Fortunately, it looks okay in that regard. What a mistake they made! I too have seen a few forgers misspell the name of the celeb they were trying to forge. I knew there were some problems with some of the Julien's items. I didn't remember the specifics. And that is a great example of why you shouldn't necessarily trust the word of even a seemingly iron-clad source. I mean...who would have thought that someone so close to Michael would be forging his signature?
I know many people on AML often say that buyers should only buy from good sources or known reputable sellers. While my seller would, at least at face value, seem like a good source, she really couldn't be classified as a known reputable seller since this may be the only thing she has ever sold on eBay. It is the only thing she is selling now or has sold in quite awhile, anyway. And as I said before, at least this Thriller isn't part of large inventory of autographs she is trying to sell in order to make really big money.
So hopefully I'm not being too trusting. But your point is well-taken - never just trust the word of the seller. That is something that we all need to remember. I feel like everything considered that this is likely genuine. But thanks for the great example of where blind trust can really lead one to get taken big-time. As always, your advice is second-to-none. If I do end up sending this into a TPA anytime soon, I will let you know the outcome. Thanks again. - James
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Permalink Reply by wascher on
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I would have spotted the double L right away :)
There were actually 2 signers in the Bush/Juliens thread. I believe Michael Bush's "partner" created the first ones - which were the double L style. When his "partner" died.... another style emerged, which clearly looked identical to Michael Bush's own handwriting. They stuck a few items in Juliens auctions to start with, and got a taste of BIG $$$. The Thriller Jacket fetched 1.3 Million all by itself. (Holy Shi# right?)
Bush and Tompkins made total 4,513,241.00 just on their autographed items in Juliens auctions. They also sold items that were not autographed those are not figured in, but not many.
Here is the Thriller signed dbl L sleeve. And a few more of that style under it.
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Permalink Reply by Paul on
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Holy shi#is right!
The buyer has more money than sense.
The members also talk about someone in the business at one stage with Bruce Springsteen selling forgeries. So you have to be careful.
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Thanks for the pics, wascher. No doubt one has to be careful. Those forgeries, other than the double ls, are pretty decent and had style. Some people have talent in forging items. Those guys were part of an on-going scam with multiple items. At least the seller I'm involved with appears to just be selling one item and doesn't appear to be a dealer of any sorts. Her background and job as a publicist and manager in the music business lends her some credibility...maybe. No doubt, though, that one's background does not insure honest dealings. I mean who would have ever thought Winona Ryder would shop lift! I don't know why I thought of that, but it just popped in my head.
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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on
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The jacket brought $1.8 million
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Yep your correct, typing error, and 1.8 is figured into the full amts in my totals.
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