Willie Mays "Say Hey" hologram source?

I know some (most? all?) signatures associated with this hologram are assumed bad. I did a quick search but couldn't find anything, and, with the Hollywood Show running a sale on them, I figured I'd ask outright: where did they come from? Did the foundation legitimately provide autographs with the hologram or are they a strictly second-hand market thing? Were the autographs bearing the hologram that were acquired directly via the foundation good, assuming there were any?

This is a subject where, especially over time, messages get muddled (see: the number of people who believe that Scoreboard & Mounted Memories certed & sold fakes). So I'm interested in the actual history of the hologram.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Shepherd on April 3, 2020 at 9:46am

Why do you assume that the Willie Mays autographs associated with a “Say Hey” hologram are bad? That is simply not true.

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Permalink Reply by Mike White on April 3, 2020 at 9:55am

For starters, because you're the first person I've ever heard say that every autograph paired with a Say Hey hologram is good & this is the only time I've ever seen anyone make that claim.

Given that you participated in some of the threads here about the inconsistent & overly pristine signatures/items, I find it more than a bit strange that you're acting like this is the first time that you've ever heard the claim that there are bad items paired with Say Hey holograms.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Shepherd on April 3, 2020 at 9:57am

Read my reply again. Then read it again, and have a nice day. You are terribly mistaken.

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Permalink Reply by Mike White on April 3, 2020 at 10:01am

This was your reply:

"Why do you assume that the Willie Mays autographs associated with a 'Say Hey' hologram are bad? That is simply not true."

If you meant to say anything other than "There are no bad autographs associated with the Say Hey hologram", you didn't.

And, like I said, you're the only one I've ever seen say that, given that the market was flooded with them--so much so that even PSA and JSA won't authenticate anything with that hologram anymore.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Shepherd on April 3, 2020 at 10:16am

I was not aware that JSA and PSA are not authenticating Willie Mays autographs with “Say Hey” holograms any longer.

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Permalink Reply by Mike White on April 3, 2020 at 10:36am

It's been the case for a while, at least as far as PSA goes.

I'm not sure when JSA backed off them.

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Permalink Reply by Rich on April 3, 2020 at 10:28am

I got that email tHollywood Show today too, and that thought again popped in my head. I want to say that someone, somewhere had posted something showing real vs. fake holograms, but my memory is a bit spotty on that. However, the history and handling of the Say Hey hologram is something I have not heard much of any background on.

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Permalink Reply by Mike White on April 3, 2020 at 10:42am

That's what I'm trying to ascertain. I'd never buy from HS, but their email reminded me that I never did figure out what happened, as most discussions fizzle out without any history presented.

I've seen rumors that the holos were forged. I've seen people say, seemingly with certainty, that Mays' agent took the holos and forged the bad signatures.

But I can't even figure out if the holos were ever even used by the foundation, and, if they were, whether the graphs that accompanied them were unquestionable.

Like I said, this stuff gets murky. You have people insisting Scoreboard & Mounted forged stuff, when, in reality, their stuff was good & they just had COA security issues, because over time, that's what "Don't buy based on this cert" turned into.

I'm trying to figure out, once & for all, what the holo even is, because having had no dealings with the foundation, I've only ever seen it on second-hand stuff.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Shepherd on April 3, 2020 at 10:43am

There have been numerous conspiracy theories over the years. I happen to own a Willie Mays baseball with a “Say Hey” hologram, so I am obviously interested in knowing if the conspiracy theories are true. I have yet to see any evidence. I have even heard the rumor that thousands of forged items with “Say Hey” holograms came out of China many years ago. Again, no proof. If anyone has any additional information about this, I would be very interested. And yes, Rich. Michael Frost at PAAS posted a discussion about this back in 2013. That is why I found this one to be interesting.

Willie Mays “Say Hey” Hologram Discussion

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Permalink Reply by Mike White on April 3, 2020 at 10:53am

Net54 on this subject

Net54 on this subject again

Blowout on this subject

Blowout on this subject again

Another thread here on this subject

For someone interested in "additional information about this", you were awfully quick to jump in, dismissive & argumentative, in a thread that exists to acquire just that & piece together an accurate history of the hologram.

Did you acquire yours through the foundation? Or second hand?

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Permalink Reply by Mike Shepherd on April 3, 2020 at 11:03am

I simply asked why you assume that the Willie Mays autographs with “Say Hey” holograms are bad. I do not believe that to be true. I never said that they are all authentic, or that none are bad. You said that I said that. If you read my question again in the present context, you will see that I am interested to know why you feel that way. Thanks for the links. I will read through them. I purchased mine from Steiner Sports.

Also, I looked at your other discussion topics to see if you had posted anything else about this topic, and I saw the Irvin Kershner autograph that you once asked for an opinion about. It looks pretty typical to me. I hope that you own it.

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Permalink Reply by Mike White on April 3, 2020 at 11:17am

Actually, no, you didn't "simply [ask] why you assume that the Willie Mays autographs with 'Say Hey' holograms are bad". You explicitly said "That is simply not true."

When I responded to your question, you dismissed my response, without even replying to the meat of it, by saying "Read my reply again. Then read it again, and have a nice day. You are terribly mistaken." That's not "simply asking" anything.

But, if we are both interested in getting to the bottom of this, we can move past that. Did you get yours directly from the foundation? Or second hand? Because if it was directly from the foundation, that means that the foundation did, in fact, utilize these holos, which I've, honestly, yet to see anyone say or demonstrate.

And, for the record, I believe it because, as Steve Zarelli noted in the above thread, people who know what they're talking about have told me there's cause to believe it--and the sheer number and price corroborate that. I don't believe for one second that Willie Mays sat down and signed thousands of photos, which he then let go of in droves for pennies on the dollar. Even if the signatures didn't look "off", I wouldn't believe that.

Which means either dealers are flooding the market & somebody's taking a huge loss (because Willie didn't sign these for the mid-low double digits that they're selling for) or something hinky is going on. And I know which one is more likely.

And, yes, I do own that Kershner. I got it for about $40 or $50, I believe. Thank you!