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Authenticity is Everything
Any Idea What This Is From/What This Means?
So I have a huge issue with PSA and I also am trying to figure out what is written on this basketball""A quick background of the situation: I started collecting when I was 5 but nothing too extravagant until around 23 yrs old (8 years ago). Unfortunately, a contractor got me for over $90k and I need money to finish my home so I have been selling away my collection. I have two high valued items that I submitted to PSA tha were denied and there was a lot of supporting evidence.
I submitted 6 items to PSA, 3 the first time and a different 3 the second time. I submitted a basketball signed at the 1994 All-Star Game in Orlando that featured many of the same players from the 1992 Dream Team; such as Jordan, Pippen, Bird, Magic, David Robinson, etc. but also had legendary players; such as Wilt, Kareem, and Kevin McHale. Every signature was of very good quality except Barkley's was faded some. Forger's don't typically do multi-signed items, especially 17! I also felt very confident in every signature except Hakeem's until I found how different his signature was from the early 90s and then later. They also denied my Ali from the 70s that I have 2 from at the same time but only submitted 1 because I was going to sell it and keep my other, and then I submitted a Gretzky I felt confident it was an autopen but wanted to have it confirmed because I'd feel really dumb if I was wrong. I had all three denied. When I called about it and said I wasn't surprised at all about the Gretzky but the other two were legit they wouldn't give me any answers except, "Regarding your multi-signed basketball, if only one signature does not pass as authentic, the entirety of the item would not pass as authentic." I talked to them on the phone and they said it is policy for multi-signature items to check the first, most expensive signature and if it doesn't check out none will check out so they stop right there. I argued how there were 17 signatures and they state they will consider all evidence before making a decision and my argument was that if the other 16 were found legit, if the Jordan was off a little, that the other signatures should compensate since there are valid reasons for a signature to be different from his others since every signature is different so if there is one that is the same, it is an autopen! They replied, "when one does not pass our authentication process based on one or more of the signatures matching our authenticators knowledge of how any one of the athletes submitted for would sign, we do not maintain multiple images of the ball for reference to distinguish alternate signers who may or may not have passed the authentication process." Later they stated they check all signatures and some were invalid for various reasons but they didn't keep those records.
I later submit 3 other items. All I am extremely confident in; Ali signature w/ plane ticket of signing, Bobby Orr, and a substantially complete Iraq Most Wanted Cards where the exact cards have been published in nationally recognized media outlets; such as NY Post. PSA approved 2 of the 3, denying the Saddam Card and not looking at any of the others. I asked them if it isn't authentic than what does the signature say? They could not answer. I provided supporting documentation and 2 of the articles that showed the exact cards. I also mentioned that it appears their policy changed. My prior submission PSA stated they look at all signatures yet for the Iraq Most Wanted Cards they only check Saddam. Also note, the card showed code name (never released until couple years ago), all the inmates' DOC and cell/room number while at Camp Cropper are written on the cards as well. I also asked what items they were using as their actual signatures because what is to say that those signatures are correct? My items include far more proof/evidence and witnesses than those documents I bet. Saddam also had several body doubles. The person who signed my cards was confirmed through the most stringent of forensic science. In my opinion, and I am sure that at least some will agree, my items should be the standard. PSA gives the most generic feedback and does not allow for the buyer to make sure they even did it correctly or to debate why the interpretation is wrong. The harder it is to have PSA authorize it, the more the COA is worth. Something needs done to improve the authentication program. It took me a month to save up to send these items to PSA because no one will even buy items anymore unless it has a COA from JSA or PSA. Of course people say, send it to JSA, but everyone knows to maximize return you want PSA.
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Comment by Pittsburgh Memorabilia on July 25, 2016 at 6:17am
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To clarify, what is the writing that is shown on the basketball in the picture included in post and how can the integrity of the authentication process be verified?
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Comment by Mike White on July 27, 2016 at 6:43pm
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everyone knows to maximize return you want PSA
I disagree completely.
As far as I'm concerned, a PSA'ed Michael Jordan is worth as much as a JSA'ed one--which are both worth as much as an unauthenticated one. As far as most serious collectors are concerned, there are two types of Jordan autographs: UDA & everything else.
As for the Iraq cards, just because they're in the news doesn't mean that they're real. I read the NY Post article (they're essentially a tabloid, by the way--invoking them doesn't invoke a sense of jounalistic integrity, not that such a thing exists anymore anyway) & it's just the guy selling them saying he got them signed--no different than a lot of the forgery sellers on eBay. The article's existence provides 0 proof about the authenticity. Heck, they don't even provide proof beyond the guy's word (clearly stated as simply being his word) that he was ever anywhere near Saddam. If PSA looked at that article (or any other, which I assume contains the same information) and changed their opinion, I'd think less of them than I already do.
I know other collectors disagree, but I think that if a TPA is going to err, I'm glad they do so on the side of "un-authentic". It's not like it somehow mars the piece for life. If they're real, a collector who knows their stuff will see that & buy them. Anyone who buys a Michael Jordan or Saddam based on the word of PSA or JSA honestly doesn't know what they're talking about.
But this line made me laugh out loud:
The person who signed my cards was confirmed through the most stringent of forensic science.
The person who was arrested was confirmed to be Saddam. You have 0 proof that he's the one who signed the cards though. If you did, you would've provided it instead of a tabloid article that says nothing more than "Guy who says he was assigned to Camp Cropper says he's selling cards that he says were signed by the people pictured on them".
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I understand what you are saying about Jordan with the UD and everyone else. Do you have any idea what the attached picture means in the Blog? I have also included the Jordan signature
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Comment by J.Seah on July 29, 2016 at 7:41am
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Was your Saddam's Signed Card Set authenticated either by Christopher Morales or Drew Max through forensic science??
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No, I meant that the person who signed it was proven to be Saddam Hussein by the military using forensic science. His signature, as well as all of the additional signatures, were obtained at Camp Cropper.
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"Also note, the card showed code name (never released until couple years ago), all the inmates' DOC and cell/room number while at Camp Cropper are written on the cards as well. I also asked what items they were using as their actual signatures because what is to say that those signatures are correct? My items include far more proof/evidence and witnesses than those documents I bet. Saddam also had several body doubles. The person who signed my cards was confirmed through the most stringent of forensic science." The military has several methods to confirm they have the right person, many of which are classified.
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Comment by Rick Meyer on July 29, 2016 at 6:39pm
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The military uses forensic science to authenticate signatures? Sorry to tell you they don't. No chance they let autograph hounds run the cell halls of Camp Cropper especially while Saddam was housed there.
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I'm not talking about authenticating the signature, I am talking about making sure Saddam was Saddam. I already have had discussions with the Pentagon about them acquiring these cards for a display they are currently working on, but it won't be complete for a couple more years.
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No provenance that these are authentic. I read the story.... It's a good story but really all it is. Ranks up there with acquiring tractor trailers full of old Scoreboard inventory purchased during their bankruptcy.
Was a very risky purchase I believe. Hope you weren't duped.
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I know the guy (I served in Iraq with a different unt but my friend worked in the prisons with the guy). It included pictures with all the inmates, their cell number, and DOC number. Here is one of the articles http://nypost.com/2013/09/22/soldier-selling-iraqs-most-wanted-card...
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