We are an eBay affiliate and may be compensated for clicks on links that result in purchases.

Could a signed carbon duplicate receipt be a “real” autograph?

If I use the phrase “carbon copy” instead of “carbon duplicate,” it would seem the answer is pretty straight forward...no...because a “copy” is not original. But could a carbon copy receipt, either from an old receipt book or from a credit card transaction, be a real autograph?

My first thought was no. However, after thinking about it some more, I’m not entirely sure. Okay, back in “the old days,” when a person made a purchase using a credit card, he would sign the receipt for his purchase. In between the top copy and another copy would be a carbon paper, so that when the signer pressed on the top copy, the carbon would produce a second version of the top copy. The second version was produced directly from the manual manipulation of the signer. It wasn’t a photocopy. The “ink” on the second version was simply the carbon signature produced directly from the labor of the signer. The original ink from the pen was replaced by “carbon ink” if you will for the second version of the signature.

So my thinking now (as messed up as it may be) is that the act of signing produced two “real” autographs. Although the top copy may be more desired, perhaps the second should still constitute a real signature.

‘It also looks as though the owner of History for Sale believes that a carbon signature is also a real autograph. I had never even really considered any of this until now.

Any thoughts or opinions on this?

0 members like this

▶ Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on July 23, 2018 at 5:19pm

"...I don’t think a carbon signature would ever be as valuable as a live ink signature, but both are “autographs” directly produced by the signer..."

I think "indirectly" instead of "directly".

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Scott Paul on July 24, 2018 at 12:36pm

That is exactly right Eric I was trying to think of a hierarchy designation and I think your "directly" and "indirectly" works great.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by James on July 23, 2018 at 1:26pm

Here’s another point regarding semantics. One shouldn’t get too hung up on the word “copy” in the phrase “carbon copy”. After all, in a credit card transaction, don’t we refer to the the first page as the “top copy”. There you go. The live-ink version is referred to as a “copy”. So my point is...when considering this, don’t get too caught up with the word “copy.”

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Joe W. on July 23, 2018 at 2:56pm

One other note of interest. History For Sale also believes that a secretarial signature carries a value nearly equal, in some cases, to an authentic piece. I do business sometimes with them and like them a lot. But, I've seen a number of secretarial signed items without a mention of it being secretarial. I heard them make that "argument" before. Wishful thinking.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by James on July 23, 2018 at 3:23pm

Definitely wishful thinking! I would much rather have a “real” carbon autograph over a live-ink secretarial any day.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Rick Meyer on July 23, 2018 at 3:24pm

They believe that cause they sell autographs and if they can try and value something like that and find a sucker to pay equal for a secretarial signature it benefits them.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Joe W. on July 23, 2018 at 3:37pm

I think it's a lack of precaution on authentication. Many of their autographs have been listed on their site for a number of years due to over pricing(which I believe they can price what they want).

There was a discussion awhile back when their Elvis autographs were questioned. A few others chimed in about their secretarial material. Their manager, who is very nice to do business with, actually responded directly and said he thought there is a value for secretarial signed material.

Problem is, if you knowingly offer a secretarial for sale and not state that fact, you are being dishonest or ill informed.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on July 23, 2018 at 5:26pm

I believe in some cases a secretarial has some value to a collector - take a 1954 signed photo postcard of Gleason (not the rampant 70's secretarials), in its original envelope from the studio. If you wrote Gleason or the show, that is what you would have received. I have never seen a genuine signed PC from that man. In this context, I find it collectable and of some value (perhaps $40 or so) in a "Honeymooners context".

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by James on July 23, 2018 at 5:51pm

One of the most valuable secretarial autographs I can think of is the 1937 Babe Ruth Sinclair Oil Contest signed baseballs. I’m not sure exactly how long the contest went on, but the Sinclair Oil Co. held a weekly radio contest (I believe), and the winner was sent a baseball that was supposedly signed by Babe Ruth himself. For years, if not decades, these signed balls were thought to have been signed by no one other than Ruth. However, the truth eventually came out that all the balls were signed by ghost signers. They were all secretarials. Still today, the balls typically sell in the $300-$600 range, some even more. They are regarded as a nice Babe Ruth collectible, and they’re still popular to own.