Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Nick on February 16, 2022 at 4:58pm

Got it. Thank you, ballroomdays67. Honestly, really appreciate your opinion on this and based on Keith’s reply you are a trusted voice. 

for those that may be reading the thread, I have appreciated all the feedback and opinions shared. Definitely helpful for me- and I continue to be interested in opinions from others that are willing to share.

here’s where I am: I will be sending to Roger Epperson for his full review of the piece. i will post the results here. I will trust Roger’s opinion while also knowing that there are many challenges to authenticating this autograph including: a) lack of provenance, b) variance in Dylan’s autographs over time, c) high volume of fake Dylan autographs in the market, d) low volume of authentic dylan autographs on the market.

I also acknowledge that there are a number of reasons to point folks to believe this is a fake autograph including: a) source of obtaining autograph, b) price paid for autograph, c) similar lyrics and autograph on photo shared by ballroom that appear to match (personally I’m less concerned on this one- but again am no expert), d) PSA’s evaluation coming back as “questionable authenticity” (upon further research since submitting to PSA I am less concerned about this as well but again I am no expert)

all that known, I am kind back to where I began this little journey to try to understand if the autograph is in fact from Bob Dylan. I purchased this knowing that it was likely fake, but remain interested in knowing whether it could be real. Not because I will sell it (will not sell ever either way- I am not interested in getting money deceitfully by selling a fake autograph, and on the other side of the coin I would never sell an authentic dylan autograph as it would carry too much meaning for me). No, I’m very curious to understand, from the most trusted sources in Bob Dylan autograph authentication, whether it is likely real. I understand that we will never know with 100% certainty if it is real (though some will have strong opinions one way or another). I  am interested because of meaning to me. If it is likely authentic, again if said by the most trusted source, I will take steps to and spend money to preserve it and display it in my home. 

I took a chance - knowing the odds were not in my favor - of spending money to purchase the piece knowing I may essentially lose that initial money. But the price was so low and the piece to me looked interesting, and most importantly I am very interested in owning a real dylan autograph that the potential upside outweighed the risk.

I then sent to PSA and paid for their services, again knowing they would most likely tell me it is fake, but willing to take the risk. And interested to learn if it could be real.

I paid roger Epperson after doing my research and understanding he is the trusted source for authenticating music autographs,  for his quick opinion, again, anticipating he tell me it was fake. 

I discovered Autograph Live  (here!) when researching trusted autograph authentication and posted here to ask for opinions from experienced collectors.

and now I will pay Roger Epperson to do a full evaluation of the piece and provide me with his opinion. 

I am doing this because a real Bob Dylan autograph (and hand written lyric quotes) would carry a ton of meaning for me personally. And I would like to understand from the most trusted source in this specific arena, if the opinion is real or not.

So far I have been comfortable with, the risk/reward scales: the initial purchase was very low, the PSA opinion was relatively little, the Epperson quick opinion was little and even now the Epperson full review will be relatively little. Others will feel differently. That’s ok. 

I guess the last thing I will say is just a more direct response to ballroom’s POV that one should only send an autograph to Epperson if you have a high degree of certainty of its authenticity. I think this is where I disagree. It may be that I am not an autograph collector. I have no interest in building a collection of autographs of famous people. Really. Bob Dylan holds a ton of personal meaning for me as an individual and I would actually find meaning and personal value in being able to look at his real autograph daily. I understand how this will sound to people that think Dylan is overrated, has a terrible voice, etc. but this is how I feel. So I’m willing to spend the time and money here on this forum, and with the most trusted TPA to work to understand if it could be real.  A casual music fan or a casual dylan fan or even a traditional autograph collector will feel differently. Again, that’s ok.

all that said, more opinions welcomed. And I will share that Epperson full evaluation once received. I truly appreciate your time 

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Permalink Reply by Stepeanut on February 16, 2022 at 11:55pm

Nick,

I do not always have the memory for exemplars that some do here, and I certainly don’t keep a file of them to hand, but I am a longtime Dylan fan and serious collector.  Like you, owning an original Dylan autograph was an emotional experience to me, not just a box to be ticked on a list of celebrities, so I understand where you’re coming from.  I am also the proud owner of a unique, uncirculated acetate that once belonged to Dylan himself.  Again, it’s an emotional experience just knowing I have that record in my home.

My initial enthusiasm for your autograph was severely tempered when I saw the exemplar that Ballroom posted.  I’ve probably seen this exemplar before, but I clearly don’t have his memory for these things.  Of all the criteria you posted above, for me, this is the biggest problem:

c) similar lyrics and autograph on photo shared by ballroom that appear to match (personally I’m less concerned on this one- but again am no expert)

Dylan rarely, if ever, writes the same thing in the same way twice, which is one of the frustrations when it comes to authentication.  For me, there are too many similarities between these two inscriptions and signatures to be coincidental.  Again, that’s a massive issue.

If it’s a fake that you have then it’s a very good one because it fooled me on first inspection, and it sounds like it fooled Epperson also.  My guess is that he doesn’t remember the previous exemplar either, but I’d also be willing to guess that his opinion would change if it were brought to his attention.  There’s only one way to find out ….

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Permalink Reply by Nick on February 17, 2022 at 5:59am

Thank you, Stepeanut! I appreciate this and sounds like we can relate on the meaning attached to Dylan. 

I especially appreciate the note about how dylan is known to rarely write the same thing the same way twice. Knowing this, I have additional skepticism too. (My common sense thinking was leading me in the opposite direction, knowing that people in general misspell the same words over and over.)

totally agree that there is only one way to find out.

thanks again for your opinion!

Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on February 17, 2022 at 11:21am

For me, there are too many similarities between these two inscriptions and signatures to be coincidental.  Again, that’s a massive issue.

For sure. Not only are there too many similarities, but letters that look entirely natural on the original were poorly copied to the other example. One that really sticks out is the N in “moonlight.” There’s also the S in “eyes” and the R in “where.”

Permalink Reply by Hyacinth House on March 5, 2022 at 8:11am

+2

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Permalink Reply by Stepeanut on February 16, 2022 at 12:43pm

Hmm.  That’s a potential problem.  Like you say, it’s so difficult with Bob.  I put off buying anything for years, until official sources became more widely available during the last 10-15 years.  I wanted certainly above all else.

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Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on February 16, 2022 at 12:55pm

It took me a while to find something too. I ended up purchasing an LP that Michael Wehrmann got signed in person.

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Permalink Reply by Stepeanut on February 16, 2022 at 1:01pm

I have one of his giclée art prints, plus this ridiculously limited art book, which I purchased last year for £500:

Full story on the book here:

https://www.bobdylan-comewritersandcritics.com/pages/odds/painting&...

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Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on February 16, 2022 at 1:06pm

Wow. Congrats! That’s a great price.

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Permalink Reply by Stepeanut on February 16, 2022 at 1:18pm

Thanks.  I got very lucky.  Just happened to be doing my usual online Dylan rounds at the right time, and caught wind of this book from a just-posted thread on the Expecting Rain forum.

Like you say, £500 is a great price for a Dylan with rock solid provenance.  And provenance doesn’t get much better than a receipt from the National Portrait Gallery, London.

I know Michel, who runs the Come Writers and Critics website, so I made sure to get the details behind the book documented for posterity.  Sometimes, collectors’ items can be too obscure, and that can cast doubt in the minds of newer fans, when they can’t research something online.

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Permalink Reply by Nick on February 16, 2022 at 1:18pm

Can you expand on “official sources” for dylan autographs? I’m familiar with the signed prints of his paintings, and have seen a few items that Tony Glover owned sold in the last few years, but are there other official/trustworthy sources you could share?

I am definitely going to “go the distance” with getting Rogers letter on this, but where should I be looking for a trustworthy Dylan autograph it turns out to be fake?

any guidance would be appreciated.

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Permalink Reply by Stepeanut on February 16, 2022 at 1:42pm

Your safest bet is Castle Fine Art.

Other official sources include:

Tempest CD — available in very limited numbers from a handful of pop-up stores in 2012.  Unfortunately, there are fakes about, so an original receipt is essential for provenance.

The Lyrics Since 1962 — 50 hand-numbered deluxe editions were signed by Dylan in 2014.  The list price was $5,000.

The Nobel Lecture — 100 hand-numbered deluxe editions were signed by Dylan in 2017.  The original price was $2,500.

Face Value — 21 hand-numbered bookplate editions were signed by Dylan in 2013.  Not all copies were made available for sale immediately.  Some were sold at the time for £500, whilst the low numbers were held back until 2021, when they sold for up to £2,500.

Face Value — A further 12, unnumbered bookplate editions were signed by Dylan and made available to the public in May 2021.  My copy is pictured above and on the Come Writers and Critics website.

These aren’t the only books Dylan has ever signed, but they are the only ones where the provenance can be proven easily.  That is a very important detail when it comes to Bob’s signature.

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