Elvis army photo

I am surprised this allegially passed Epperson. This has a lot of Bakker traids.

https://www.ebay.de/itm/126478019803?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid...

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Permalink Reply by Steve Viola on May 20, 2024 at 4:44am

But when did it pass? Bakker fooled a lot of people in the 90's until Epperson exposed him. I even bought one in the 90's from R&R but got refunded after the truth came out.

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Permalink Reply by Thorsten Knublauch on May 20, 2024 at 5:25am

It is stated in the auction that it passed qo by him.

This one - and several others signed on similar photos in similar fountain pen - have traids of Bakker but not 100% like him.

So possibly this is one of the rare good ones?

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Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on May 20, 2024 at 10:08am

not a fan of this one.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on May 20, 2024 at 10:22am

No way Roger OK'd this. And it's supposedly an online opinion, which they should not use, but they didn't post the email. I'd be surprised if that's a Bakker BTW. Too lousy.

They supposedly showed a Lennon they're offering to Tracks and got the thumbs up. No email there either.

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Permalink Reply by Thorsten Knublauch on May 20, 2024 at 10:34am

I am not sure - the Bakker traits are the fountain pen and the shark like r - but overall it is different. Here are some similar that I personally would rate authentic. But who knows. Not everything could be Bakker and there must be authentic ones that served Bakker (or whoever signed for him) as a basic.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on May 20, 2024 at 12:38pm

If they're real they're a style I've never seen before.

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Permalink Reply by Thorsten Knublauch on May 20, 2024 at 2:13pm

The problem with QO is always that the item in discussion is not shown. If Roger - or whoever is offering such service would answer:

"I think the autograph on the private Elvis photo outside Goethestrasse written in black fountain pen is authentic" it would be helpful for both sides. The collector who pays his share has a proof for the requested item that could not be withdrawn or denied afterwards (had happened before) and the authenticator could be sure his opinion could not be misused.

A simple "yes" or "no" in an email for 15 Bucks is very simple.

Surely it could be the other way around if the collector describes the item in the email as suggested above - then a simple yes or no is suitable.

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Permalink Reply by Markus Fischer on May 25, 2024 at 3:11pm

Hello Steve, dear all,

oh yes - Roger did OK this!!! I wrote to the ebay seller of this very autograph and he sent me two screenshots with the e-mail from Roger stating "looks authentic in my opinion" together with the candid photo. The Quick Opinion dates from April 19, 2024! So brand-new...

(For data privacy protection reasons I will not post the photos here.)

So Gentlemen - the world seems upside down somehow...

One of the world's leading authorities in Elvis autographs thinks this is REAL - whereas the majority here seems to think differently --- and vice versa in other cases...?!

I guess it is about time to reconsider the prevailing opinion that almost every German autograph is a "Bakker"!!!

Any thougths about this?

Best regards
Markus

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Permalink Reply by Markus Fischer on June 6, 2024 at 7:58am

Dear all,

this is just to let you know that the discussed 1959 candid autograph on ebay was SOLD - most probably because of the approval/backing from Roger Epperson.
As I was also interested in buying, I did some research...

- Fact #1: The seller really did have a Quick Opinion from Roger Epperson: "Looks authentic in my opinion." (as stated before)
- Fact #2: I asked PSA/DNA for a Quick Opinion: "Likely Not Genuine"! (Request ID: 201666)
- Fact #3: Mixed emotions/evaluations everywhere else amongst the "hobby experts" (besides the interesting discussion here, a parallel discussion was also started on Facebook (Elvis Presley Autographs: Real and Fake) which also turned out to be very controversial...)!

So what are the major takeaways from this particular case?

1.) UNCERTAINTY: You can never know for sure when it comes to Elvis unless the autograph is a slam dunk with an in-person provenance!?

2.) ALLEGATIONS: Rumours are being spread since 30 years now that most German Elvis autographs were faked by a Dutch guy called "Bakker" (meanwhile his works are even subdivided in the "old" and the "new" Bakker...?!?!) - but when it comes to really prove anything, silence is all you get - nobody has ever come up with rock-solid proof about what exactly this Bakker guy did, when he did it etc.!? (On the other hand, alleged examples for "Bakkers" can at least be found in abundance and are being discussed daily...)!?

3.) RULES: Certain "rules" are widely being applied (and spread!) in this regard to spot and rule out a so-called "Bakker fake", e.g. like "whenever it is in ink, whenever a letter is missing, or another letter is too big or pointing downwards, or if there are 5 loops instead of 4 etc., then it definitely must be a classic Bakker fake"... These rules cannot really be trusted as they do not withstand a comparison with real in-person autographs: Elvis' authentic signatures feature all these traits, too - at least sometimes. And this can be proven! What I try to point out: if the blueprint is wrong, then the rest goes wrong, too!

4.) VALUE: Resale possibilities and especially the value of an Elvis autograph are massively influenced by Quick Opinions/COAs issued by a handful of respected individual authenticators (Rich Consola, Roger Epperson, Stephen Shutts/Lyndell Morris) or TPA organisations (Beckett, JSA, PSA/DNA). Nevertheless, and as discussed here many times, mistakes might be made even by professionals...?!

In my opinion, the many many declared "Bakker fakes" leading to devaluation ruin the whole market and hobby, as simply too many real German exemplars are unjustly made worthless and other (suspicious?) ones are sold at enormous prices.
Let me quote Al Wittnebert, former UACC, once again on the Army years in Germany: "This time in history produced the largest amount of authentic Elvis Presley autographs that appear on the market today." (A Study of Elvis Presley's Autograph, Jan. 2007).

You know, firstly I want to learn and help educate myself and others - and secondly I want to bring this nuisance to light... Interested in the truth, too?
What is your opinion? Am I right or wrong?

Thanks for sharing & kind regards
Markus

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Permalink Reply by Thorsten Knublauch on June 7, 2024 at 1:00am

I totally second your post.

1. There is no full story about Bakker: where, when or who did he sell his stuff to mainly.

2. You find around 5 different authentic autograph styles from his German army styles.

This candid one from Ebay (and the ones I posted above) have traits of Bakker and traits of good ones. Why is this good and the others are not? Steve mentioned above that if this is authentic it would have been a new - unknown - style to him. I.e. style No 6 from Germany..

In the latest Gottahave auction were so many very suspicious autographs that had or had not a COA by real (that xmas card was IMO a big joke).

And you are right - the opinion of a few individuals ruin the market if they make mistakes and claim that they all came from Bakker or new Bakker. On the other hand they surely help the market if they are right.

I think in the Private Elvis book a lot of autographs hav been claimed as Bakker from the photo album by that girl from way back. But looking closely there is no Bakker. There are a lot of authentic, sloppy ones and the false ones are from the secretary at the time. But this book in many discussions is still the example for Bakker.

To make it clear - the often discussed Bakker fakes from years back are rated by myself fake aswell and I do believe that there are a lot of them around. That's why I also want to know more about it. As far as I know a lot were sold or resold through the German Fan Club. How did he got them - is the story true? Where were the others sold by Bakker? Is Bakker a reseller or is he the one who writes them? Why was there never a court case? Why is he called "Hans" while his name on his business card is different?

I also notice looking through old threads here that years ago certain styles were rated "Bakker" while in recent years they are rated good.

Elvis is a minefield and I am glad that I have my authentic one and do not need to look for others but how many collectors own fakes and believe they are good and how many have good ones that are slammed in the discussions as fake and are not able to resell them because auction house relate to the opinion of one or few so called experts? I fully understand that this is the only way to work for auction houses and by reading the latest auction describtions it seems that they are even more blurry now if they say "it is the opinion of xyz that this is genuine". They dont give guarantees at all IMO. (How could they...)

Thats why it is so important for all of us to learn ourselves. This Ebay sale brings up a new discussion and we have to find out if this style is good or not. Regarding discussions with other fans and other "armchair experts" over the last weeks it seems that just Roger believes that this one is good which lead to this astronomical sale price. What should we learn from this....?