Authenticity is Everything
Billie Holiday Autograph
I purchased this 78 vinyl record purportedly signed by Billie Holiday from an RACC trusted seller. I recently submitted the item to JSA for authentication, and unfortunately it did not pass.
I originally submitted it in person at a show here in CA a few weeks ago, and I was disappointed by how carelessly the item was handled during intake. When I received it back, there were fingerprints all over it. I contacted JSA immediately to report the condition, and they did expedite the review process.
Yesterday I received their letter confirming that the autograph did not pass authentication. I’m extremely disappointed and unsure what my next step should be, or if anyone here might be able to offer advice.
Prior to purchasing the item, I did my research and examined the signature characteristics—such as the looping of “Billie” and the shape of the “H” in “Holiday.” However, upon further inspection, the signature appears to have been written in ballpoint pen. Additionally, the Blue Ace label is known to be a bootleg label, and this particular pressing seems to have been released slightly before the time of her passing.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by a pug called eva
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I've explained where the extra loops are (e.g. the "i" s and the e). The thing is that the so-called abnormal examples I've pointed to follow the "rules" much better than your example.
At the end of the day you can always say that it would be physically possible for someone to sign in a way that goes against their own handwriting rules and doesn't match other examples in many critical respects. Believe me, I've tried to convince myself of that many times when I've bought fakes. I've had my fair share - over the last 30 years or so I must have "invested" at least $5,000 in them.
With your LOA from Roger you should at least be able to sell yours.
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Permalink Reply by Ryan W
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I’ve shown you: the ink is period-correct, the tail on the ‘y’ is explained by the label. Roger authenticated it, and he doesn’t pass signatures lightly. Your 30 years of ‘learning from fakes’ does not override the judgment of a professional authenticator.
You’re nitpicking minor variations while ignoring everything that proves authenticity. Those so-called ‘rules’ you cling to don’t apply in real-world conditions—different surfaces, pen angles, and spacing affect execution. What you’re calling abnormal is completely consistent with an in-the-moment signature on a record label.
Your experience buying fakes somehow doesn’t make you an authority on authenticating Holiday autographs. This signature is real, and nothing you’ve said changes that.
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Permalink Reply by michelle
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what does seem strange in this story is that the seller, an experienced ebay seller should price it that low if he thought it was genuine, bearing in mind the high prices of many of his other items
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Just because a seller prices something low doesn’t mean it’s not genuine—it often means they’re unaware of its full value or just want a quick sale. Why would this one item be fake while everything else he sells, which is priced more in line with expectations, is authentic? Not to mention the serious repercussions of knowingly selling a bad item.
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Permalink Reply by JK
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BTW, did the seller ever get back you after your initial complaint and charge-back attempt? If not, how reputable is he?
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It's not irrelevant at all when you are using his supposed reputation to support your presumption of authenticity.
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JK, of course it’s irrelevant. Why would I care whether the seller responded? Did it occur to you he may have known it was authentic all along and was upset about the chargeback.
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JK –
No one is deciding who can comment—cut the nonsense. What’s actually happening is people, including you, jumping in late, repeating the same tired points and pretending it’s meaningful analysis when it’s already been addressed multiple times.
You admit you ‘left it to those with more knowledge,’ yet here you are adding nothing new and not engaging with the specifics. That’s not contribution.
And spare me the ‘intellectual exercise’ line lol. This stopped being that when the same criticisms started getting recycled while ignoring the responses.
Yes, authentication can have gray areas. That doesn’t justify endlessly nitpicking a piece after a respected professional with far more experience has already authenticated it. At some point, it just becomes stubborn refusal to accept anything that doesn’t fit your view.
If you actually want to ‘agree to disagree,’ then do it. Because right now it just looks like you want the last word without adding anything of value.
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What’s actually happening is people, including you, jumping in late, repeating the same tired points and pretending it’s meaningful analysis when it’s already been addressed multiple times.
Your comment above is, to put it kindly, not true. I have not offered any analysis or any opinion on authenticity.
I mainly expressed discontent with your rudeness toward people who gave their opinions and their time, and you continue to prove my point.
I hope you and your LOA are very happy together.
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JK, you’ve said a lot without actually saying anything of substance. Calling me rude is ridiculous. I’m not going to sit here and agree with or praise people—regardless of their experience—just because they’re offering opinions. That’s not how this works.
And frankly, you haven’t added anything meaningful to the discussion, so you might want to keep the sarcasm and combative comments to yourself.
I hope you and your LOA are very happy together. Great comment.
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The point I was making about the fakes I've bought is just that I know how hard it can be to accept when people - whether professionals or fellow collectors - tell you that they don't think the autograph you've bought is real. I once spent countless hours trying to convince myself that a Lennon I'd bought was real when people on this forum told me it wasn't. Your case is different in that you've also gone to a couple of authenticators.
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