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Authenticity is Everything
Calling all John Wayne experts, need your opinion
This would be a good case study for this forum and what better place with all the autograph experts. And, all the PSA /JSA discussion going on.
I recently sent a John Wayne letter to someone who I respect as a very skilled authenticator. He is also probably consulted quite often by PSA for vintage Hollywood. His opinion was that the John Wayne letter below is secretarial. Hence, I assume it would probably not pass PSA. I am NOT “questioning” his expertise. But, I would like to hear from anyone who has a good level of expertise with John Wayne. I have a good background with his signature which is why I am a bit baffled here. Below is the letter with two PSA pre-cert and cert photos I bought from R&R. They are both from the same time frame as the letter signature, 1976-1977.
This is what I see.
1). The “J” is consistent on all three
2). The “o” seems to have the standard double circle
3). The “o” connects to the “h” the same, but here is where I thought there could be a secretarial “fingerprint”. The ‘H’ in the second PSA John Wayne is much higher than the “h” in the letter and also the PSA has a wide loop in the handle of the h. However, after looking at about 25 other genuine Wayne signatures I noticed the smaller “h” without a loop on several including the second PSA signed photo at bottom of the below image. So back to square one.
4). The “n” in John has pretty solid consistency to the PSA signatures, though it does have an element of a subtle right tilt.
5). The “W” at first had a drastic left curve on top of the right wing, that extends beyond the first stroke/wing of the “W” . But, then I noticed the second PSA has a similar strong left curve in same spot. However, I did notice the “W” has a loop in the middle that the others didn’t have. Also, the drastic right wing curve has a bit of an "unnatural" look to it.
6). The rest of the “Wayne” are remarkably identical including very subtle characteristics such as the open top of the “a”, and the even height of the top pf the “y” to the top of the “n” and that very unique and subtle drop in the “ne” which is NOT evident in almost every Wayne secretarial signature I’ve seen.
Also, I believe based on the UACC late 80’s autopen study , that John Wayne did not apply for an autopen machine until 1978, which he would probably never use, because he was severely ill and passed away the following year.
Would like to hear your thoughts. What am I missing here?
Thanks ,
Kevin Conway
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on
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Kevin,
Could you please post images of the full inscriptions? I don't know enough to pipe in with an opinion, but the inscriptions will certainly help.
Thanks.
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Greg,
Isn't it that he's questioning the expert's opinion...not his expertise? There's a difference.
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Permalink Reply by Anthony Bautista on
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Here are some other authentic Wayne's . John wayne #2 has the same loop like yours does. You should try getting some other opinions.
- Attachments: No photo uploads here
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john wayne.jpg, 47 KB -
john wayne 2.jpg, 79 KB
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john wayne 1971.jpg, 132 KB
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I bought a Roberto Clemente autograph a few years back and sent it to Psa and it came back as secreterial. I sent it to Jsa for a second opinion and it passed at Jsa . After doing my research I found out that it wasnt secreterial either. But it bugged me for the longest time because it was for my private collection .
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One thing a lot of people look for on genuine Waynes is for the "ne" to be below the baseline of the rest of the signature. I see it on all three of these, but not as pronounced as usual.
I wasn't going to opine on your question, Kevin, since I'm not an expert or experienced in Wayne, but what the heck--this is fun:
I think that the SPs are likely genuine, but the TLS is a forgery...not a secretarial. It's signed slowly and the signer tried to closely copy Wayne's handwriting. A secretary would sign more quickly.
OK...you guys can beat me up now.
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Excellent, Greg. And notice how the of the left loop in "J" comes to point. That's not how Wayne signed, as every example on this page shows. That's besides how slow it looks.
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Permalink Reply by kevin conway on
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I did notice the point in the "J" which raised my suspicions.
Now, about 3-4 months ago I had a similar discussion with an authenticator of a well known auction house on a Frank SInatra. There were MANY (if not most) signs of a secretarial. However, in the end they decided it also had enough areas of authentic exemplars and sold the item based on what they felt was more weight toward an authentic signature.
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Steve,
Here is Wayne's contract for Donovan’s Reef. Note the "J" point.....
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Greg,
Pat Stacy was his long time secretary. Unfortunately... . .
Pat Stacy (1941–1995). She wrote a biography of her life with him, DUKE: A Love Story (1983).
Which by the way is readily available on Amazon
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Steve,
But it is a REAL John Wayne letter on his letterhead, envelop dated 1976 from his office and his secretary's initials JW/ps on lower left. It also came from an Admiral's estate, so I don;t see any evidence or suspicion of a forged letter. Also, I am not seeing the "signed slowly and the signer tried to closely copy". I see on the contrary that 90% of the signature is very smooth, natural and consistent. The only place I see a possible slowdown in the "W", otherwise the rest of the signature is pretty flawless and natural. Take for example, the end of "Wayne". There is just no way a secretary could possibly get that identical to his authentic examples. I just find it hard to believe. Unless she signed the PSA'd photos also, because it just looks like the SAME person signed all three examples.
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Permalink Reply by Dr. Richard Saffro on
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Kevin, with the exception of the 'W' in Wayne, the signature is right on, and consistent with the PSA exemplars. I would be hard pressed to call the signature on the letter secretarial.
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