Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on May 17, 2011 at 3:37pm

lol

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Permalink Reply by Herman Darvick on May 17, 2011 at 4:33pm

The "Ronald Reagan" on the baseball is, in my opinion, a forgery.

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Permalink Reply by DB on May 17, 2011 at 4:47pm

Herman, you are just too funny... I am sure those bidding on it at the current Pristine Auction will have no clue but that is what many places bank on.... Speaking of which, on your worse day, you are more accurate that those who use Gold COAs and a host of other Gimmicks and Claims...

@Zipper; The Peanut Gallery Appreciates LOLs.

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Permalink Reply by Bob Shinn on May 17, 2011 at 5:23pm

Herman

The 2011 RR Auction Reagan inscribed to Saul, does not match any of the Authentic Reagan Exemplars that are in the published studies of Bill White @ RR, John Reznikoffs University Archive Video on Authenticating Reagan or your published study on Reagan in the Pen & Quill.

It Doesn't match in the " To" based on the above studies and it Definately does not match in the Signature of Ronald Reagan based again on the above studies.

How can 3 very extensive studies not show the " To" variant as you like to call it, as well as show how the Reagan Signature on the Goodman  does not match an Authentic Reagan Signature.

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Permalink Reply by Herman Darvick on May 17, 2011 at 7:10pm

Bob, I am sure that Ronald Reagan signed more than the handful of autographs in the 1930s and 1940s illustrated in the three studies. Instead of just looking at the shapes and angles of the "T" and the "o", a handwriting expert also examines the manner in which those letters are formed, not only in the word "To" but in the rest of the inscription and the signature. The angulation of the entire signed inscription, the relative size of the upper case and lower case letters, ascending and descending strokes, the spaces between words, the connecting strokes. And more.  Bob, no matter what I say, you will continue to believe that the signed photo inscribed to Saul Goodman was not penned by Ronald Reagan, even though it was.

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Permalink Reply by Bob Shinn on May 18, 2011 at 11:01am

Herman...

Unless you were there with Saul, and saw Reagan autograph the Photo for him,

your comment to me "Bob, no matter what I say, you will continue to believe that the signed photo inscribed to Saul Goodman was not penned by Ronald Reagan, even though it was" is pretty silly. My beliefs are based on the studies I talked about above,

as well as authentic Reagans I have purchased in the past from Charles Hamilton, Mary Benjamin, Steve Raab and Ken Rendell

Autograph Collectors rely on verifiable published Studies, Like the Bill White Study on the RR Website, John Reznikoff's University Archives Video on Authenticating Reagan and Your own Study in Pen& Quill in order to make sure that the autograph they are considering for purchase is Authentic.

It is not an exact science, but its the best we have short of aquiring the signature ourselves in-person.

I have posted pictures of the "TO" from authentic Regan examples, that do not match the "TO" on the Goodman Pic.

You however have not  as yet posted a picture from any other published study  that matches the

'"Variant" as you like to call the " "To" on the Goodman picture.

Surely it must be out there, and with you working with John at University Archives, and the abundance of authentic Reagans in the files there, there has to be one you could post.

I look forward to seeing it.

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Herman Darvick on May 18, 2011 at 12:02pm

Bob, you state that "unless you were there with Saul, and saw Reagan autograph the Photo for him," my comment that "no matter what I say, you will continue to believe that the signed photo inscribed to Saul Goodman was not penned by Reagan, even though it was" is pretty silly.   It's not silly at all. Would you buy a George Washington autograph only from someone who saw George Washington sign it? I never saw a study of George Washington autographs but as far as deciding whether one is authentic, as the Honorable Potter Stewart, Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, stated in an opinion, "I know it when I see it."

 

You then say that your "beliefs are based on the studies" you mentioned (University Archives video, Bill White's R&R study, my P&Q study) and that "Autograph Collectors rely on verifiable published Studies ... in order to make sure that the autographs they are considering for purchase are Authentic."

 

There are no studies that I am aware of on the signatures of Benjamin Franklin, Isaac Newton, Theodore Roosevelt, Greta Garbo, Charles de Gaulle, Marie Curie, or Josh Gibson to name seven of the hundreds of thousands of famous people whose autographs are collected.

 

So what is an Autograph Collector to do?

 

Buy from a reputable source, from an autograph dealer or company that guarantees the authenticity of what is sold. Buy from a seller or auction house that consults respected autograph experts if there is even the slightest doubt about authenticity. And beware of the self-proclaimed autograph expert who is alone in his attacks on the reputations of those in the autograph field who have earned their well-deserved international recongnition as experts, even going so far as to fabricate evidence to support his accusations.

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Permalink Reply by Bob Shinn on May 18, 2011 at 2:07pm

Great Response Herman...
I do not see any photos to support your theory that the Goodman Autograph is authentic.
I have asked you many times to support your theory that the "To" was indeed inscribed by Reagan.
So far you have not done so.
Lots of lip service but no actual evidence to post here for all to see.
I posted the 4 "TO" here for all to see and 3 of them were from the studies I have quoted above.
All have the exact same charecteristics that make me believe they were penned by the same person.
Unfortunately the "To" on the Goodman photo doesn't even come close.
My Beliefs are based on 45 years of purchasing Autographs from reputable sources, including the most respected Dealers of our time.
I really do hope you are not calling me a self-proclaimed autograph expert who fabricates evidence to support my position.
The evidence I presented here Comes from you, Bill and John, who I consider respected autograph experts.
As far as quoting the signatures of Famous People whose autographs are collected, what does that have to do with the "To" in the Goodman Photo.
Nothing.
And remember that is where you wanted to Start taking apart the inscription and signature.

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Permalink Reply by DB on May 17, 2011 at 5:33pm

Bob, u continue to raise good questions on this one.  I am sure BL has been following this when he can and perhaps someone from the R&R gang can chime in as well as We of the Peanut Gallery would like to hear from some others.

 

At the end of the Day ~ the Peanut Gallery acknowledges that we may have disagreeing viewpoints....and thus the conclusion becomes inconclusive and the bidders run with caveat emptor.  The good news is that at R&R you have some assurances.  

 

Nonetheless ~ if authentic then the variation as "slight" as it might be are not inclusive of the studies that were originally pointed to and cited.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on May 18, 2011 at 12:49pm

I have no opinion as to the authenticity of the Reagan ISP. I think both sides make valid points.

 

To me, the key takeaway is to avoid signatures that raise question marks. Even if it is authentic, who wants to have to defend or "explain" atypical items in their collection?

 

Sometimes, the baby does get thrown out with the bathwater.

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Permalink Reply by DB on May 18, 2011 at 1:05pm

Zip ~ we of the peanut gallery  concur.  The point though thru all of this is that the studies that have been referenced that Bob has pointed to again and again then need to be updated in a variation of the theme if there is genuine agreement that it is an outlier otherwise the studies degrade over time.

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Permalink Reply by Herman Darvick on May 18, 2011 at 1:51pm

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Bob Shinn the only person who has said that the Ronald Reagan inscribed photo to Saul Goodman currently being offered for sale by R&R is, without a doubt,  not authentic?  Isn't he the only one who has raised question marks? And Bob Shinn's credentials as an autograph expert are...

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