Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by DonBlaze on October 21, 2014 at 9:08am

Castglony ,If I remember right you are the one who used the term "broad" and the best part ,is you had to apologize .See like I have said before you talk so much you forget what you say. Thank you ,for proving my point about :baiting" calling me names shows fellow collectors on how you help them out. You didn't disappoint me as I didn't expect much more from you.See Castilony, You can call Coaches Corner all the names you do ,but to them that and you to them is harmless.That is why they will continue in what they do because people like you will never have a affect on them.

Permalink Reply by Dom Vito Castiglione on October 21, 2014 at 9:20am

Don, can you read or comprehend anything? I know you seem to have trouble writing clear sentences. I believe my apologie was sarcastic after I gave the definition for it. How does me calling you a buffoon prove that I don't help out fellow collectors? You don't make sense, as usual. If you got a problem with people exposing forgeries here, you're in the wrong place!

Permalink Reply by wascher on October 21, 2014 at 9:51am

I'm not sure what you think I said that was tongue in cheek, but here's my point.

Your wrong about getting items removed just from reporting them.  Many people here have done just that, again and again .....and again and again, and the items remain.  They've also reported sellers (and not just single items) even going so far as having the real authorized Companies contact eBay and STILL eBay keeps the sellers of those forgeries selling.  Its disgusting.  Dom Vito has one person he specifically reports constantly (we all report this guy to eBay with him)... he's still out there selling his junk.  Ryan has too.  EBay USED to take things down with a few complaints... not so much any more. 

The reason Chris and others don't go the route of notifying someone first is exactly as I mentioned.  99.9% of the time they get told to buzz off.  And THAT is a fact.  They USED to do it, I did too.  I also quit for the same reason and now just report items here.

Keith may be one of the very few that would have removed the item and called it a day, but at the same time he has some very skewed ideas about the entire situation, and if anything, maybe he learned something about the autograph industry here.   First of all he thinks its no big deal with the item he ended up with, because he "gave to charity".  This is exactly how these guys get away with this.  They get to keep the money and nothing happens to them--after all it was for a "good cause".  Others don't see it that way (I certainly don't).  Its a huge crime ring that lines their pockets.  He also mentioned above that the EXPERT who donated to the charity knew more than anyone else what was legit because he was an EXPERT.  And that too is wrong.  The video I sent on the previous page (that I'm not sure he even watched) shows one of those "EXPERTS" donating their forged garbage to the charities and ripping people off - by the name of Coaches Corner --- need we say more?  (Keith-Coaches Corner is one of those experts that plays off of people's inexperience in autographs and is a huge forgery set up, placing COA's that are meaningless as the items are not legit---none of us can believe that authorities have not stepped in yet to put them away... but we're still hoping that some day it will happen).

I have nothing against Keith.  He's probably a real good guy that got stuck in the middle here.  But to say Chris is somehow baiting someone is just wild DB. 

In any case I apologize for calling Keith's words here smug.  It just seemed odd to me that he was very polite with me privately talking about the blog here, but "smug" when replying out-loud for everyone else to see when he has you cheer-leading for his "team".  In essence, he's the true victim and it has to be confusing for him all around - either way, so I apologize to him.

-w

Permalink Reply by Rick Meyer on October 21, 2014 at 9:20am

   Many here contact sellers when they spot forgeries. The responses that come back from the sellers is nasty 99% of the time. Only the sellers can stop auctions. When these sellers find out that they purchased a forgery more are hell bent even more to sell it and recouping their money then they are doing the right thing and tearing the garbage up.

Permalink Reply by DonBlaze on October 21, 2014 at 9:40am

Rick, I don't want to argue with you but myself and another person remove several in what we think is bad signatures each week.We are neither of course are not  the seller and not the prospective buyer. I was made aware of the low feedback rating and the reporting of the listing and we have had luck in them being removed.All I can say here is try it.See I know people here reading are getting a little upset in what I say.

Let me state my point,please. First, I have been collecting for almost 40 years and when people made mistakes ,we would point it out to them. I understand in what you say about people who sell bad autographs coming on here and being nasty. Please look at their side no matter if they are guilty or not, that writings here prior to them coming on has to put them on the defensive right off the bat.

Another thing about taking people on. I know one of the people who was on the good side of Operation Bullpen. At the beginning they went thru a lot of rejections from the authorities. They could have quit then and there and said"we did all we could" Thankfully for all collectors since then they didn't. I have alot of respect for my friend as not only was he partially responsible for putting over 13 major forgery rings out of business but also helped to send some to prison. These people are the "true heros" who helped this hobby out Rick, feel free to write back.

Permalink Reply by Dom Vito Castiglione on October 21, 2014 at 10:05am

Obviously, me or anyone else will indeed have "little affect" on Coach's Corner. We don't have the power to arrest them them and bring them up on charges. If we did, they would have been in a jail cell long ago. However, the "true heros" who helped this hobby out, often referred to as the FBI, can. Wonder why they haven't?

Permalink Reply by DonBlaze on October 21, 2014 at 10:23am

Yes , The FBI and IRS agents did a great job and should be commended on what they accomplished but Dominick it was started when "collectors" brought it to the FBI 's attention.They met resistance at first and "Operation Bullpen"  was almost a failure and thankfully it wasn't.

Dominick, About Coach;s Corner,your right, one person will not bring them done.It is going to be a group of people who will devote a lot of their own time to bring them down.They have so much steam and money behind them ,that they will make any attack on them difficult to win.

There are smart people on this site and I think that some kind of joint effort would put the fear of God in Coach's Corner.

Permalink Reply by Dom Vito Castiglione on October 21, 2014 at 10:44am

Collectors have been bringing them up to the FBI for over 20 years. Complaints have been made to numerous sources. From the local PD in Souderton, the FBI, BBB to attorneys. The only thing collectors can do is expose them, or as you like to put it, b***h about them. The FBI is the only one who has the power to stop them.

Permalink Reply by DonBlaze on October 21, 2014 at 10:55am

B***hing is just  self gratifying and has to be evident that not only does it not work but really to be honest does  almost nothing.Like I said ,persistence would get somebodies intention.I believe that the people who can achieve that ,are right here on this site.

Permalink Reply by Keith M. Smith on October 21, 2014 at 10:53am

Me, trying to do my due diligence in finding out where this fake was donated from called the owner of the memorabilia shop I though was the culprit. Found out he was not the one who donated the item. Guess what, he was a nice guy, but did state if any malicious misinformation was given about him, I would be in court sued for slander. He said in his field all you have is your name, and one bad report can kill your business.

I’m still efforting, and as soon as I find out who the donator is, I will pass on the information.

Just thinking about this to myself. Why not contact the seller, or try to have the listing removed. If they move on with the sale or the item is not removed, expose them after the fact, kind of like what was done to me, but not skipping the first two steps.

Again I applaud any effort to clean up the business, but the vigilante mentality of due justice on this board seems a bit skewed. I understand the passion. And there has to be a zero tolerance rule, but a note or a phone call will indicate to you if the person is a scumbag or not. If they are a tool expose them, if they cooperate with you, we don’t have a 3 page thread of in fighting. You guys are on the same team right??????

Some of folks caught in the middle have wives, children, go to church, do volunteer work, and lead life by a set of ethics handed to us from our parents.

You can't skip step one and two, and jump right to three.

That’s all I am saying.

You know who the person in the middle of this photo is. It's me.. These are the young men I teach to be chefs in my spare time just giving back to the comunity.

Permalink Reply by DonBlaze on October 21, 2014 at 11:23am

I am going to use Keith as a example. Numerous times on this site you will see the phrase "we are here to help out the collector".That is all well and fine in words, but seeing the start Keith had here ,the phase and actions don't match to me.

I feel Keith brought up some good points in his last post in where we as mature collectors should have gave him the benefit of the doubt and the person who discovered his autograph,they should have emailed Keith and bring it to his attention.I think more then once this dosen't happen here in that the seller is accused to all here and it goes from there. When Keith came on he was abrupt and how should he have felt ? I think his reaction was normal.So all in all what  was he taught.I believe there is a better way and that is starting off with the seller.

I have done this on Craigslist which to me is a bad place to buy.I have met John Olsen on there and he is a hands full  as he is looking for ways to come back.Some people are good ,they think they have somethng good like Keith and find out different.I understand there are people who will be totally resistant but you have to try and do the best you can.

Permalink Reply by wascher on October 22, 2014 at 5:57am

Donblaze I cannot respond to your post under it so I will just add this as a new comment on this thread. 

Bitching (as you coin it) alerts folks to those who are selling forgeries and it has a huge value to the public and potential wannabe collectors.  If you were to Google coaches corner (I'll use them so we stay on the same thought process), you would come up with 100's if not 1000's of discussions of how they infect the hobby, many/most of them coming from this very forum--from people "bitching".  Sitting back quietly and trying to come up with an idea of how to get the FBI to notice someone does nothing these days. They've been reported for years to the FBI, and even had a news story done on their donations of junk autographs to Charity.

Here's another fantastic example, we literally had proof of Juliens auction-house selling millions of dollars worth of Michael Jackson forgeries--even had the person who gave Juliens the items, and when the FBI was alerted and given all of the information and proof of, we heard crickets afterward (can you believe Michael arose from the dead to sign one of the items?  He signed right above a logo trademarked after he died!)  Roger and Steve did a news story on that one too.  They ripped people off in the MILLIONS.  And nothing from the FBI was done about it.

However, now if you do a Google search on Juliens Auction, you'll find the information about the Michael Jackson forgeries sold by them that are linked to this forum, all from the people here who were bitching.  If you do a Google search on Coaches corner you'll see the same type of results.  Hopefully reading about questionable items from a seller (ANY seller), makes someone do more homework when it comes to buying an item from them.  Keith is probably a great guy, but guess what, he listed a forgery - and that should make anyone who see's this double check an autograph he might sell in the future.

BTW DB we have no idea how Keith would have reacted had he been reached prior to the auction end, you keep speculating that he would have pulled it.  When I read his post about his son knowing guitars and he takes his word on it as its his expertise, he said the same thing about the Dealer knowing his stuff.  This is EXACTLY what is heard from most who are approached when told they are selling a forgery by contacting them on eBay first.  But since we didn't follow what you wanted the guys here to do, we'll never really know right?  Heck we don't even know if the sale was really cancelled - but this time I'll take Keith's word on it as he does seem to be an up and up guy.

One more thing, bitching is not self gratifying at all--that is a statement that couldn't be further from the truth.  In fact it p***** everyone off here that does it that it even has to be done.   The folks here are mad.  Forgeries destroy the hobby and those reporting the sellers are here tirelessly trying to wake people up as to whats going on in this hobby and trying to stop sellers from selling bad merchandise.

I for one appreciate and applaud all of the alerts these guys put out on sellers of forgeries.  Thank you to Chris and to Dom---you guys both rock and do a huge favor to this hobby that you guys all love (and to many other members who do the same)

-w

EDIT:

Keith sent this to me so that we know he did cancel the sale.  Thank you Keith for doing this and showing you did.  We all really appreciate this.

Timeline to best of my knowledge:

1. Sale goes final at 6 PM Oct. 19. I am disappointed all i got was 102.00
2. 6:15 I get a message on Ebay from a gentleman asking me if the litho in this link is mine.
3. 6:20 I respond yes and thank him for the heads up.
4. 6:25 I leave a message for a J**** W****** (named edited out by moderator), the gentleman that purchased the photo to give me a call.
5. 6:35 Received a call from J**** and I e mailed him the link, and discussed what was going on. I told him I don't have a good feeling about this, even though he has some Mantle stuff and could not tell the difference in the painting. I told him if its all the same I would rather cancel the deal and refund his money.
6. The transaction below happened before 7PM, less than an hour after I was notified about the possibility of the litho being a fake.

This order was canceled

All done. You canceled this order and refunded the buyer.

Quantity:1

$102.50

Subtotal:	$102.50
Original shipping:	$25.00
Refund:	-$127.50
Order total:	$0.00

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