Authenticity is Everything
Billie Holiday Autograph
I purchased this 78 vinyl record purportedly signed by Billie Holiday from an RACC trusted seller. I recently submitted the item to JSA for authentication, and unfortunately it did not pass.
I originally submitted it in person at a show here in CA a few weeks ago, and I was disappointed by how carelessly the item was handled during intake. When I received it back, there were fingerprints all over it. I contacted JSA immediately to report the condition, and they did expedite the review process.
Yesterday I received their letter confirming that the autograph did not pass authentication. I’m extremely disappointed and unsure what my next step should be, or if anyone here might be able to offer advice.
Prior to purchasing the item, I did my research and examined the signature characteristics—such as the looping of “Billie” and the shape of the “H” in “Holiday.” However, upon further inspection, the signature appears to have been written in ballpoint pen. Additionally, the Blue Ace label is known to be a bootleg label, and this particular pressing seems to have been released slightly before the time of her passing.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ryan Wolfson
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Will do—I’m in the process of cancelling the dispute. I had planned to ship it to Roger tomorrow, but as a novice I’m a bit hesitant. Should I feel comfortable sending it? I’m obviously concerned about the “what ifs,” like it getting lost.
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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin
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Roger will treat it like it's his own. Pack it right, and feel comfortable.
Send a return package if you want it packed a certain way when returned, unless it's safe to use the packaging you sent it in. Ask Roger.
Make sure you're compliant with eBay and PayPal time limits first, and fully understand your options. Ask their customer reps to confirm you'll be OK if it takes a few weeks longer. Make sure Roger will be in town, too, so you don't have to wait.
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Got it, I appreciate your help.
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Permalink Reply by a pug called eva
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You have to ask yourself why a dealer would price this Holiday so low. As I said earlier, he/she has a Sinatra table card listed at $1,900 or so. Surely the prices should at least be the other way around and the Holiday should probably be a minimum of $5,000, as you say Steve.
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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo
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+1 JK
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Permalink Reply by Dominick Lisi
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JK -
I think there’s been a misunderstanding of both my comment and the intended role of VeriMarx. Suggesting that someone try the application before critiquing it isn’t a claim of authority—it’s a baseline expectation for informed evaluation. As for the disclaimer, it’s not a contradiction; it reflects a standard and necessary boundary. VeriMarx is not positioned as a substitute for expert authentication, but as an analytical tool that can surface features, patterns, and potential inconsistencies that may inform an expert’s review. Encouraging its use prior to rendering an opinion is about incorporating additional data points—not outsourcing judgment.
No serious practitioner is claiming that AI replaces expertise. The value lies in augmentation, not substitution. If anything, dismissing a tool outright without engaging with its methodology risks the same kind of overconfidence you’re attributing. Healthy skepticism is warranted—but it should be grounded in direct understanding of what the system does and does not claim to do.
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Translation: "We don't authenticate but don't you dare authenticate until you run it by us first."
You also suggest that no one is allowed to dismiss your application without using it first lest they diminish their own credibility. There's that self-serving arrogance again.
And be reminded that Eric, for example, shares his entire methodology and thought process, whereas you do not, sheildng it as proprietary information.
It doesn't matter how many disclaimers your lawyers told you to post, you know that people will use your AI to support their claim that items are authentic. Otherwise, it would just be used for entertainment and amusement, and there would be no reason to pay $4 a shot.
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That’s not an accurate translation of what I’ve said or what VeriMarx is intended to do. There’s a clear distinction between requiring deference and encouraging informed analysis. No one is being told they “can’t authenticate” without it, the point is that dismissing a tool outright without examining it weakens the critique, not strengthens it.
On the disclaimer point: yes, people may choose to cite outputs in support of their opinions that’s true of any analytical aid, from reference exemplars to software tools. That doesn’t transform the tool into an authority; it underscores the responsibility of the user to interpret it appropriately. The existence of a disclaimer isn’t a contradiction it’s an explicit acknowledgment of that boundary.
As for methodology, there’s a balance to be struck. Full transparency in expert reasoning is one model; protecting underlying systems while still presenting observable outputs is another. Disagreeing with that choice is fair, but it doesn’t, by itself, invalidate the tool’s utility.
At its core, this comes down to a difference in perspective: whether analytical tools should be evaluated based on how they’re intended and structured to be used, or dismissed based on assumptions about how they might be misused. The former leads to a more productive discussion.
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JK, even though I agree with you, unfortunately you're unwittingly contributing to many various AI applications when you help others on here determine whether an autograph is authentic or not by merely posting your findings online. Although no contributor is copyrighted on here, OpenAI got in real deep shitte when a very gifted artificial intelligence researcher named Suchir Balaji was murdered just over a year ago after he publicly blew the whistle on massive copyright violations related to the training of AI models. 26 years old and found with a large bullet hole through his head. Your experience and opinions are being used whether you agree to it or not.
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This is one of Gabe's at Schubertiade. I mentioned this previously but did not show it. Same opposing letters as I have been showing at RR (the Zane below) etc.
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From Instagram (where there are no comments):
"Curious if it’s authentic? Discover the truth with VeriMarx!"
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Exactly... “Discover the truth” isn’t about claiming a final verdict, it’s about encouraging deeper examination of the evidence. VeriMarx is a tool for analysis, not a substitute for expertise, and its value comes from how it’s used and understood. The real objective is to promote more informed, methodical evaluation, because better knowledge leads to better conclusions.
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