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Charlton Heston Secretarial Signature Study

 Hi:

At Steve Cyrkin's invitation, I'd like to call your attention to a signature study I've posted on my blog, Charlton Heston signature study by Steve Zarelli.

I believe I have identified the "tell" in Charlton Heston secretarial signatures, and if I am correct, the news is not good for most collectors. It appears that most  Heston signed photos are secretarially signed.

 

Here is a synopsis:

The Theory
Photographs and other memorabilia sent to Mr. Heston's office were signed by a secretary. However, Mr. Heston did authentically sign books through-the-mail.  

Real vs. Secretary
In authentic signatures, the R in "Charlton" is distinctly a lowercase "r" and less than half the height of the L. The first four letters are clearly "Char."

In secretarial signatures, the R looks much more like a lowercase "l" and is about the same height as the L. So, the first four letters appear to be "Chall."

I have attached two images to give you a small sampling.  

For more details and images, please visit my blog at the link below.

I'd love to hear your feedback and thoughts on this. I fully anticipate some resistance to the theory, because denial is always the first step. In fact, I would love to be proved wrong, because that would mean I wasn't sitting on a bunch of secretary signed photos!

By way of introduction, I have been collecting since the early 90s and I am the UACC Ethics Director.

I look forward to the discussion.

The Collecting Obsession

Regards,

Steve Zarelli

 

Tags: Charlton, Forgery, Heston, Secretary, authenticating, autograph, secretarial

Views: 25393

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on March 10, 2011 at 12:48pm

And THAT's why it's so important to rely on experts!

Thanks for your input. I didn't realize it was 1980s. Didn't even think it might be early, but I didn't pore through Rolf's study.

What did you pay for it, if I may ask?

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on March 10, 2011 at 12:59pm

Greg, I think you're right...in an article format on the main site, and point to it in this discussion and visa versa.

 

Permalink Reply by Rolf Ramseier on March 10, 2011 at 1:06pm

Greg, I also think this will be the best !

 

Steve C., sure experts are good, but it is still my opinion each who collects (or espercially deal) seriously should be his own expert, that's the basement of my friend Markus Brandes quote (and if I am not totally wrong, the quote was first made by our Isitreal US presidents expert Andreas Wiemer) :-)

 

Zipper Steve :-) yeah it most maybe could be dated back to the 80's, damn I love photographs like this, anyone has a Moses or Ben-Hur (OK, with what we know now, most maybe only have a sec) but photos like this are real treasures !!! Congrats to this one !

Permalink Reply by Rolf Ramseier on March 10, 2011 at 8:03am

3 days ???

 

I am on this since 1997 if my mathematics is not wrong that's 14 years now !

 

My first studies has been published in ca. 1999 in a Swiss magazine

 


A second study has been published in 2003in a the German magazine "Der Autographensammler"

 



and those studys are on Isitreal since April 2005

 

and some months ago Bob Shinn has translated the study from 2003 an it has since then published on Isitreal as well

Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on March 10, 2011 at 8:20am

And in the Q&A, he admits to having a staff to "keep [up] with the fan mail."

 

While he answers "no" to question 6, "Have you ever relied on the use of an autopen, printed, stamped or other non-authentic means to sign," my guess is he was really answering "no" to the autopen, stamp and printed part of the question.

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on March 10, 2011 at 12:14pm

I think Travis's complaints come from something really important that we can fix:

Anyone reading this discussion would have to read 15 pages of comments, and follow links to Steve's study on his blog and Rolf's on isitreal.com, to truly understand that this isn't some crowd inspired "string 'em up" lynching of a signing style.

Steve, why don't we put your study at the beginning of this discussion, along with a link and a clear mention of your blog as the original source. Then follow it with Rolf's content and links to the original source at isitreal.com, before the comments start?

This will put it all in context for quick reading and comprehension.

Thoughts everyone?

Permalink Reply by CJCollector on March 10, 2011 at 12:38pm

Steve,

 

That's a great idea.  You know, without opposing points of view (in other words, we can all agree to disagree) there is no stimulation of thoughts and comments.  Travis, brought up some very good points and Rolf has been very impressive with his knowledge and findings.   This has been quite a lively and information forum and I am impressed with everyone's input here.  The stimulation of opposing points of view is what makes forums like this a great base of learning for everyone.

Permalink Reply by Rolf Ramseier on March 10, 2011 at 10:22am

Mike, I am sure the listing was prepared before they have known this story, so it's maybe the best just get them a hint that they have listed the Heston secretary and I am sure they will act as a serious dealer and will end the item (if they think we are correct with our findings). There is no point to jump in and blame them for this mistake.

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on March 10, 2011 at 2:19pm

Mike, honestly, I think you're expecting a bit too much here. That AW, RR and JSA acted so quickly is something we should applaud--not criticize them for missing some. Besides, they may have set up their eBay listings weeks in advance, since they're a large dealer.

This site is a place for conversation, learning and sharing information with the purpose of furthering the hobby and making collecting better and safer for everyone. I'd hate for it to become an autograph version of the Spanish Inquisition.

Permalink Reply by DB on March 10, 2011 at 12:23pm
Mike, I still have a window open of their main autograph site that depicts a number of them that were open prior to their decision... they are no longer to be found.  A clear oversight on ebay it sounds.   I'd be happy to post those previously listed nonetheless.  Or are you just launching a hand grenade?
Permalink Reply by DB on March 10, 2011 at 1:54pm

Rather than be little twits on something just take a moment to emai as they are a very class act and see the plausibility in the studies unlike a number of auction sites who are certainly aware of this blog by now who are DOING absolutely SQUAT!   I suspect one of  them might have got away.  Like many of us - there are lots of items to do however  here is the full list they did knock out and several had bids on them - that means they LOOSE MONEY BUT they are more VESTED in improvements when there is empircal evidence that makes sense.  Then again can we say that for alot of other auctions currently running.  I THINK NOT! 

 

Location Item/Lot # Description Price
Original Auction 47 Beneath The Planet of The Apes - (1970) 8x10 b/w scene from 'Beneath The Planet of The Apes', signed jointly by Charlton Heston (1923-2008) and Don Pedro Colley. $30.00
Original Auction 252 Charlton Heston - (1924-2008) Actor who starred in 'The Ten Commandments' and 'Planet of The Apes'. 8x10 b/w signed shot from 'Planet of The Apes'. $25.00
Original Auction 476 Planet of the Apes - (1968). 8x10 b/w shot from the 'Planet of The Apes' films, signed by Charlton Heston (1923-2008) and Linda Harrison. $30.00
Original Auction 477 Planet of the Apes - (1968). 8x10 b/w shot from the 'Planet of The Apes', signed by Charlton Heston (1923-2008), Kim Hunter (1922-2002) and Buck Kartalian. $40.00
Theme Auction 233 Charlton Heston - (1924-2008) Actor who starred in 'The Ten Commandments' and 'Planet of The Apes'. 8x10 b/w signed shot from 'Planet of The Apes'. $17.00
Signature Pieces Auction 63 Beneath The Planet of The Apes - (1970) 8x10 b/w scene from 'Beneath The Planet of The Apes', signed jointly by Charlton Heston (1923-2008) and Don Pedro Colley. $25.00
Signature Pieces Auction 222 Deceased Actor Signature Collection - This lot has 9 individually signed 3x5 cards of deceased actors. The names include: Charlton Heston, Gloria Stuart, Patricia Neal, Johnny Sheffield, Cammie King, Karl Malden, Norm Crosby, Art Linkletter and Harold Gould. Some are inscribed. $25.00
Signature Pieces Auction 388 Charlton Heston - (1924-2008) Actor who starred in 'The Ten Commandments' and 'Planet of The Apes'. 8x10 b/w signed shot from 'Planet of The Apes'. $25.00
Signature Pieces Auction 389 Charlton Heston - (1924-2008) Actor who starred in 'The Ten Commandments' and 'Planet of The Apes'. 8x10 b/w signed scene from 'Ben Hur'. $25.00
Signature Pieces Auction 390 Charlton Heston - (1924-2008) Actor who starred in 'The Ten Commandments' and 'Planet of The Apes'. 8x10 Color signed shot from the 'Planet of The Apes'. $35.00
Signature Pieces Auction 391 Charlton Heston - (1924-2008) Actor who starred in 'The Ten Commandments' and 'Planet of The Apes'. This lot has two (2) individually signed 8x10 Color publicity portraits. $25.00
Signature Pieces Auction 670 Planet of the Apes - Planet of the Apes (1968). 8x10 Color scene, signed by Charlton Heston (1924-2008) and Kim Hunter (1922-2002). $39.00
Signature Pieces Auction 671 Planet of the Apes - (1968). 8x10 b/w shot from the 'Planet of The Apes', signed by Charlton Heston (1923-2008), Lou Wagner and Buck Kartalian. $25.00
Catalog  FP43270 Beneath The Planet of The Apes - (1970) 8x10 b/w scene from 'Beneath The Planet of The Apes', signed jointly by Charlton Heston (1923-2008) and director Ted Post.  $45.00
Catalog  FP43271 Planet of the Apes - (1968). 8x10 Color shot from the 'Planet of The Apes' films, signed by Charlton Heston (1923-2008) and Kim Hunter (1922-2002).  $50.00
 
Permalink Reply by Bob Shinn on March 10, 2011 at 2:57pm

What I find amazing is the silence from the PSA/DNA Folks.

There is a lot of PSA/DNA certified Heston Photos on ebay that

appear to be examples of the secretarial signatures we are talking about.

This I what I just called up from their site:

 I am happy to see that these genuine examples of Mr. Heston's Signature are part of the PSA/DNA exemplar library, so I have to ask  then why is ebay flooded with what appears to be PSA/DNA certified genuine secretarials.

I would love to know when PSA/DNA updated the Heston exemplars, because it doesn't look like these were used when authenticating the items I see up on ebay today.

I would really hope someone from PSA/DNA will respond to my inquiry

 

Bob Shinn

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