Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by michelle on January 11, 2015 at 4:58am

It is a fascinating and complex thread  that's for sure; - but the real tragedy is the many M J fans who have been deliberately targeted by professional forgers.  Lets hope they all are able to get some kind of redress

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Permalink Reply by Chad B on January 9, 2015 at 6:09am

I have to agree with Pete Chuka. Mike is bringing most of this on himself.

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Permalink Reply by Rick Meyer on January 9, 2015 at 8:21am

This thread is turning for the worst and not very productive. It got hijacked somewhere around page 25 and off track. It is not going to get anywhere. Sorry for participating in it. I'm tapping out.

Kudos for those who keep up the fight against these forgeries......Wascher, Roger, Mike and Steve.

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Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on January 10, 2015 at 7:37am

I was just thinking the same thing Rick. there is some very good information in here but it is being diluted by the negativity.  I suggest the Frost vs. them battle be consigned to another discussion and leave the MJ discussion in place, and on subject.

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Permalink Reply by Rock G III on January 10, 2015 at 6:27am

Still wondering why I refuse to use PAAS? I think this was a perfect example. 

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Permalink Reply by Michael Frost on January 10, 2015 at 1:12pm

Nobody seems to know all the hard work and time spent by Roger Epperson trying to help collectors. Roger has and is still working to justify the issues that have been perpetrated upon industry. This elaborate scheme has touched no only Roger Epperson but every credible third party authentication company in the industry. It has also effected some of the most reputable auction companies worldwide.

I will continue to bring to light the series of events that have lead to this point. This was a well orchestrated fraud, perpetrated by professionals.   

I stand behind Roger Epperson 100%.

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Permalink Reply by wascher on January 11, 2015 at 3:47am

I want to add this into the discussion though its talked about further back... the red Charlie Chaplin we brought up in the past, discussed in the Bush thread originally - was shown by Chad back then, and was for sale - from Trish's autographs.   It looked like it had a fake COA from Lee Tompkins to me.

Someone commented to Chad about pricing or source and he said:

Reply by Chad B on January 6, 2013 at 8:30pm

You have to email her for pricing. She has http://www.ebay.com/itm/MICHAEL-JACKSON-SIGNED-FAMILY-MENU-INVITATI...

on ebay right now for $2000.00 so I would assume this art is priced higher.

When you click the eBay link it takes you to Trishs' eBay site. 

Right now she has another Chaplin in blue marker, that was also discussed earlier, but this time instead of Corey being the "source" she said it was a Jackson cousin - Tim Whitehead. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MICHAEL-JACKSON-18-x-12-SIGNED-DRAWING-OF-C...

What also interests me is on the blue Chaplin photo is that the bottom left hand identifying ebay mark says decotis74.  Decotis74 is another eBay seller who had a Mickey Mouse for sale in crayon, supposedly from MJ - again another forgery imo from this whole set, signed in the loopy J style.

http://decotis74.com/product/unique-michael-jackson-autograph-signe...

So many things weaved together, its hard to keep things straight. :)

-w

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Permalink Reply by wascher on January 13, 2015 at 3:01pm

Back on track a little?  Please boys????

I had started typing this up last week because someone said - what if Mem Vault was a victim too?

Lets re-read some of Memorabilia Vaults replies when we were bringing up points that there might be some serious issues here with the artwork..  (Sam pay attention, you asked on Dec 25th if they "fabricated the story or went with what they were told?")

Nov 13th, when Lizzie questioned the blue Mickey Mouse with a star on top of the M--a place where none of us had ever seen "legit" stars.  MV said:  Hello, I'm from The Memorabilia Vault. We are the company selling this Mickey Mouse on Ebay.  I just wanted to explain things a little further. This particular piece and all the art in our inventory at the time come from people very close to Michael Jackson.  We have implemented a policy in which any art by Michael Jackson must have provable documented provenance and/or be certified by very well respected companies. The pieces we have in our inventory are well documented with provable provenance and have certification from Roger Epperson. If you look at the certificate of autheticity accompanying the Mickey Mouse and Mickey Mouse Hollywood star we have on ebay at this time you will see Roger Epperson has detailed that the pieces are "signed and drawn by Michael Jackson". We are very thorough here. We spend 7 days a week working on collecting and selling memorabilia. The majority of that time is spent on Michael Jackson related items. Thru our time and efforts we have made many connections which have helped us obtain pieces like the one shown here from people close to MJ. (they continue and explain "MJs" star placement on this piece, almost like they were there and they would know why he put it there). And further down again...   We have spent a lot of time researching his clothing, memorabilia, handwriting, autographs and love for art.  

That's a lot of convincing.  (ok now all of the above sounds like they are saying - we got these right from the source, directly from people close to MJ because they have connections ) they also say they have proof of this, and will supply you too with this verifiable provenance--because they "researched" it all--of course they throw Rogers name in a ton of times too whom they also gave the Corey info to)

Nov 14th - after I said I believed the items looked poorly traced and didn't resemble any of MJ's own artwork, we went back and forth over numerous tracings from both sides.... they came back with at the end:  I would also like to mention the Pinocchio and Elizabeth Taylor pieces have an extreme amount of provable well documented provenance as well as being certified by Roger Epperson.

(again with the proven provenance stuff and throwing Roger in again  

.

And Nov 17th  Right at the top.... We have spent thousands of hours researching MJ and his art as well as consulted with many knowledgable people so we have some good insight into things.... And again further down.... That said we understand that the general public has not had to opportunity to see much of his art so we understand people have questions and want to understand it better. As mentioned we've had the privilege to see his art up close and have done a lot of research on his pieces and art in general.  (us (me or Lizzy questioning the items) being the "general public", we wouldn't understand if we saw a real or fake-and again it says they did a lot of research-which suggests these pieces.  Never mind also that the general public (me) told them about several bad pieces they already had for sale earlier from another forger just a month or two before these showed up)

I then pointed out that several of the drawings were in someone else's hands FIRST being offered for sale right on our own forum --I even went so far as specifying which piece (later being pieces - plural, that Eddie Anderson had).  For 1000.00 Eddie offered another forum member the younger "Elizabeth Taylor".  MV didn't even acknowledge what I was saying, and I brought this up SEVERAL times first without even saying who had it. 

The description of the piece was they had:

Description:
Pen on paper drawing of Elizabeth Taylor created by Michael Jackson. Michael signed the drawing, added the date "99" and gifted it to Corey Feldman

Later they removed the information about it being gifted to Corey Feldman ((the description was listed on another forum, taken from MV's site first)).  Why not list Corey anymore?  is it that he really didn't want anyone to know (no, via his own letter which I absolutely believe) or was it that they didn't want any one to actually try to VERIFY it with him, and now it was time to churn out a bunch of them

. 

They made approx 25 other posts - basically repeating things such as this, showing their own overlaps, or explaining how they "knew" Michaels drawing habits (stars in weird places or demeanor while drawing, or basically "writing off" the issues while trying to discredit us.) 

I quoted things EXACTLY as they responded when we were trying to point things out.  Someone asked earlier, is Mem Vault also a victim?   I don't know how can anyone believe that when they say they did 1000's of hours of research, had proven the provenance, and got their drawings directly from people close to Michael etc (and not just once but a ton of times).  What tipped me off completely though that they were lying, was when I pointed out someone else had these drawings first, and they CONTINUED to deflect.  If you were the seller -  would you not reach out to find out WHO said they had these first?  I didn't say who at first (as can be seen in the link here)

On top of this they had an AMA "letter" that was IDENTICAL to the autographs on the drawings w/ Loopy J.  As well as an AMA that was obviously different than the original AMA (not only do the 2's not match in font, neither do the lower case g's--at all)   And they are still selling awards from "Bob Jones" here and here, with signatures that are identical in the "Michael" portion of the sig in "straight J" style.  Not even a question that they are the same writer.  NONE of these styles of Jackson signatures are out there on anything before he died.  They also have not removed the Washington drawing that is for sale on eBay that MJ's art mentor, Brett Livingstone-Strong said is absolutely fake. 

I linked to everything so that you can see what was said fully as to not make them look "out of context".   This also shows that they fabricated their story.... so they are every bit as guilty imo and not victims.

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Permalink Reply by Michael Frost on January 13, 2015 at 4:31pm

Where do you fit Prashant Kaushik into the story line?

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Permalink Reply by Prashant Kaushik on January 13, 2015 at 5:49pm

I ask you to now leave me out of this.  Steve or Wendy, please remove me as a member and please refrain from using my name in the future.  I would like to say thank you to Steve, Wendy and countless other great people I met on these boards.  I wish you luck in your collecting endeavours.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on January 13, 2015 at 8:09pm

Prashant,

Please stay. You're an important part of this investigation, you know most of the people involved, most importantly Jason Makris, and your name will be part of the discussion whether you quit the site or not.

Progress is being made. Hang in.

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Permalink Reply by wascher on January 13, 2015 at 11:35pm

Can you explain/share what you mean by Prashant knows Jason Makris? 

-w

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