Comment by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on April 23, 2010 at 5:56pm

Yeah, I'll bet she was pissed off.

Comment by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on April 23, 2010 at 8:24pm

Not to pick on Toby, but I couldn't agree with you more. Sellers of forgeries are the ones most likely to talk about celebrities they met or know, and have photos of them.

Prime example, Autographs America. Look at all the photos Brian Burkel, the owner, has of himself with celebrities. http://autographsamerica.com/index.asp

Comment by Stephen Duncan on April 24, 2010 at 6:00am

That is why it is important to me as a collector, to get stuff inscribed. Not that I ever have trouble sleeping at night, but I want those that see my collection to feel as warm and fuzzy if at all possible as well. My biggest mistake, was about the first 8-10 years of collecting I did not document the when and where, liked I learned to do much later on in my collecting years. But hey, I was young..............
( I know even try and get the celeb to date a photograph, but that is hit and miss at best )

Comment by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on April 24, 2010 at 9:08am

Steve, I think one of the most brilliant things you've done is try to get them to document your pursuit of their autograph with a restraining order.

Comment by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on April 24, 2010 at 9:31am

Travis, but look at all the good Morales does. If it wasn't for him no one could buy an authenticated J.J. McGinnity autographed baseball at any price. But there were two by him in the latest Roach's Corner sale, one for $593 and one for $1,,884. Not bad, since a PSA/DNA cut is $2,500. http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=206270

Or a Christy Matthewson ball for $3,200...a tenth the price of a PSA/DNA one.
http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=206384

Or an authenticated Albert G. Spalding signed ball for any price, let alone $583.
http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=206271

Or a Marilyn Monroe signed magazine photo for $212. That's a big savings over the $10,000 plus they usually bring. http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=205185

Comment by S. Maxwell on April 29, 2010 at 9:41pm

So happy to find this blog on Antiquities comfirming that my suspicions where probably right on. I recenty visited Las Vegas for the first time and happened upon the store and was overwhelmed upon entering. I have never seen a store like this and was amazed at the items on display. No question that these are some of the most ornate and incredible display pieces of memorabilia I've ever seen. Unbelievably framed and presented. However, the more I browsed the more suspicious I became. Some of the music signatures that I know quite well looked questionable. But the most damning evidence for me, were the Led Zeppelin fully signed albums they had a few of. Then when I saw their catalog I didn't know whether to laugh or be angry. First of all, to my knowledge there are 10 or less fully signed authentic Zep LP's known to exist. Well, evidently Antiquities owns or has owned all of them! And amazingly, they have one of every studio album Zeppelin did, fully signed for purchase!! Zep I, II, III, IV, Houses, P.G., Presence AND I.T.T.O.D!! Pick your favorite album by Led Zeppelin and we have one that's been signed by the entire band, (even though though the drummer has been dead for 30 years, and two of the surviving members are incredibly difficult signatures to obtain)!!! Now come on, how can you possibly get anyone to believe that. It seems that often in the autograph dealer community that if the physical presentation and framing of the item is impressive enough, it somehow creates a smoke screen for the item that it's presenting. I'm always leary of framed music autographs.

Another thing that was mentioned in this blog (by Josh) was Roger Epperson who also wrote a Zeppelin article for the magazine a couple months ago. I was quite thrilled to see that an "expert" had finally done an article on Zeppelin autographs. This is a band who's autograph history is almost as enigmatic as their musical career, so I was really excited to read it. Boy was I disappointed (read: pissed, frustrated and more or less insulted) by the article and the supposed "expertise" of Epperson. It was mostly a really vague overview of the bands history with so much BS that I couldn't even believe it. Many key dates that he listed in the article were wrong!! According to him, Zeppelin both toured AND broke up in 1979!?!? This is wrong on both counts. He shows a signed copy of Presence with examples of their "1978" signatures. Funny, because they were totally out of the public eye during this whole year and didn't play a single date making it virtually impossible for someone to have aquired these signatures in '78. As for the '79 thing, the band only played in two places in 1979: two dates in Copenhagen and 2 dates at Knebworth. They did not however break up in the 70's. How could anyone possibly trust Roger to authenticate signatures by a band that he doesn't even know the most basic of information on? I picked out all of these year mistakes off the top of my head upon first read, but for those "classic rock experts" who need a little help, these are all very easily varifiable dates. And being that Zeppelin is in the top three biggest, most important bands of all time, how could you not even know the year that Bonham died thus forcing their break up.?!?? Or do you also think that John Lennon died in 1979 too? And once questions like this are raised it puts a serious cloud over his whole operation in my mind. In the article he claims to have met Led Zeppelin and to have gotten an album signed by them. Why was this not pictured in his article? A signed ticket stub from Dundee, Scotland with a 'November 13" date on it is attributed to 1973 by Epperson. Wrong. While the band did indeed play Dundee in 1973, it was in January. This stub is actually from the Dundee show they played on November 13 1971, two years prior. Now, these might seem like minute details, but for someone who not only claims to be an expert in these matters, but who is also writing an article that compares (and varifies) band signatures from different years, this is a major blunder. Getting the time frames and years and touring history straight would be essential information to do the kind "authenticating" that Roger claims to do. I call MAJOR BS. And if this isn't proof enough, then maybe Roger should go work at Antiquities. Not only do his ethics appear to be on par with theirs, but maybe he can then tell us what year all of their Zeppelin albums were signed.

To Steve Cyrkin, I am a long time reader of the magazine and have always loved it. I know that you are in someways associated with Roger and I am trying to keep my oppinions on him and my love of your work seperate, so please don't hold the above against me. I am just getting tired of all the fraudulent, unethical displays that keep rearing their head in this wonderful world of autographs. The supposed pro's, on every level are the ones that are coninuing to ruin it for the rest of us. I wish you another strong decade for the magazine! And thank you for this public forum to exchange ideas, photo's, debates, etc.

In general for everyone, we must remember that this hobby in its origin began with a love and passion for certain fields of celebrity and wanting the ultimate up close and personal connection with those we admire by getting their autograph. It was a very pure and very simply fans arena. Now it's an ugly business that has turned those we admire against us on the street when we ask for an autograph because we might be "one of the pro's who are just going to turn around and sell it".

Comment by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on April 30, 2010 at 1:43am

S...what's your first name? Thanks for being an Autograph reader, and I can't tell you how sorry I'm sorry you were disappointed with the Led Zeppelin article--but this is a great place to talk about it. Please don't ever hesitate to write a letter to the editor when you disagree with something in the magazine or to call us on mistakes. We need to know when we screw up, not only to remind us to be more careful in the future, but because we want to make sure our readers know, since they depend on us.

You're absolutely right about Bonham. That was really our fault, not Roger's. One of our editors recorded an interview with Roger for the article and put it into article form. Roger stuck to the collecting facts and the editor filled in the historic details and didn't make it clear that a year passed from when Bonham was really getting out of control to when he died. It slipped past me when I proofed the article and obviously slipped past Roger when he reviewed it. But both Roger and I should have caught it. Thanks for pointing it out--I'm sorry we let you down.

For your other concerns about the article, I'm emailing Roger so you, he and anyone who wants to join in can discuss it here. If it turns out that there are important things in contention or other parts in the article that were confusing, we may need to do a follow-up page in the magazine to clear things up.

I've found Roger's modern music expertise to be extremely reliable. No one's perfect, but of the half dozen people I consider the top experts--all super-sharp--I don't know of anyone who exceeds him.

On your comment that Antiquities has way too many full-band signed Led Zeppelin albums for them to be genuine, I couldn't agree with you more. Roger can't count more than 15 or so Bonham-signed Zepp albums. Someone else I talked to (I forget who--maybe Ed Kosinski of Gotta Have it) thought there may be as many as 30. While he didn't check their records, Steve Grad, chief authenticator for PSA/DNA, can't think of more than three that they've called genuine the entire 10 years he's been with PSA/DNA. Whatever the number is, that Antiquities manages to regularly have several in stock is beyond belief. And if they were genuine, why would they sell them for $3,995 or less when they could sell genuine ones to dealers for twice that or more? Her response that she sells them at that price to offer her customers a good deal is utter hogwash. As she loves to say, she's in the most prestigious mall in the world. De Beers has a store in that mall. They mine their diamonds, and a one-carat D-flawless probably costs them less than $1,000 cut and polished. Do they charge a few thousand for it because they pay so little? Of course not--they charge $20,000 to $25,000 or more. They can wholesale them all day long for probably $10,000-plus and they wouldn't need the most expensive retail space in the world to do it.

And Antiquities isn't alone. Take a look at Rock Star Gallery in Scottsdale, Arizona. These folks are even more ridiculous than Antiquities. They regularly the first nine Led Zeppelin albums, framed together, all signed by the entire band--except for In Through the Out Door, which isn't signed by Bonham. They probably sell more Led Zepp albums in a month or so than are known to exist. As far as I know, all authenticated by Christopher Morales. What are the odds that even one of the albums in those sets are genuine? I'll be generous and say PROBABLY ZERO. The "PROBABLY" is me being generous. Hey...I'm a generous guy.

We've been threatened with lawsuits by dealers for saying things like this, but no one has ever followed through. Why? Because in a lawsuit we'd find out where they get the autographs.

Like I told Jerry Gladstone of American Royal Arts: Go ahead and sue me...I'm looking forward to discovery.

Please...someone...sue us.

The terrible shame is that new collectors buy from dealers like this, find that no respected dealer or auction house will accept their autographs if they want to sell, and then think the whole industry is like those dealers and we lose them forever.

Comment by roger epperson on April 30, 2010 at 3:42am

Dear S Maxwell,
Thanks for taking the time to write about this. I would like to reply to your statements about the Led Zeppelin article and Me personally.

As to the Zepplin article Steve Cyrkin has already addressed the issue regarding the death of Bonham and the bands breakup that was mis-dated in the magazine, enough said.

As to your comments on me and my knowledge of Led Zeppelin autographs let me give you my side of the story;
As to the signed "Presence" LP; I never said that signed while they were on tour. There are other times that you can get autographs besides while they were on tour. This album was signed at the hotel they stayed at while recording "In through the out door" thus explaining 1978. The fan waited all day and night to get this album signed. The signatures on this album as well as all the items that are listed are without question 100% genuine. Now for the comment where you question me on meeting Zeppelin in 1977 I take great offense of anyone acussing me of lying. The reason it was not pictured in the article is that I don't have it or a copy of it. I sold it over 20 years ago when I didn't have a pot to piss in and needed to eat and pay rent. I wasn't then and still am not an autograph collector so it had little value to me emotionally. I have the memory and that is all I need. I wish I had a copy of it to put in my exemplar file but I don't. The ticket was a typo on my part I believe. Since I don't have a copy of the email that I sent to AM I can't be for sure but none the less these signatures are 100% authentic.

Now last but not least let me comment on your claim that an autograph dealer should know every show and hotel the band stayed at during thier whole career. I am a handwriting expert that deals only in music autographs. I'm not a music historian though I am a musician and do know more then most about music. When I study autographs I can get the feel for the era in which they were signed by the variance in the signatures. These can stay consistant for many years like Ringo Starr or change every year like John Lennon. I think that the timeline of autographs that were listed for each of the 4 members of Zep show a nice time line in the changes of thier signatures over the years. If i am off by a year or two so be it. I rarely get any information regarding when items were signed but I can put them in an "era" and I surely know real from fake Zeppelin autographs. I study the handwriting, not where they ate at that day. If someone has a story to go with the autograph that is great but the story does not influence my opinion on the authenticity of the signatures. Many, many times people get the years wrong when telling me when they met artists and got things signed. After many years go by people tend to forget exactly when they met some famous person but they are usually very close. I have talked to people who say they met Elvis in 1957 during the Louisianna hayride and have a signed photo they got then. Well that couldn't have happened as that tour was long over by then but that doesn't mean the signed photo they had was not authentic. They are old and mix up a few years. I certainly would not call them a liar for saying that. That would be just plain wrong to do. The autograph speaks for itself.

I hope this sheds some light on how an autograph authenticator does his work and that we are all humans and can make mistakes on things.

my best
Roger Epperson

Comment by Stephen Duncan on April 30, 2010 at 9:56am

Dear S. Maxwell,
Tagg, I am it.

If you are in need of a Led Zeppelin time line for whatever reason, please see the following link. The Led Zeppelin official web site should be as historic as it gets: http://www.ledzeppelin.com/timelinebrowse

As far as asking Roger E. to know the when and where something was signed, it is just about an impossible request. 90+% of all my autographs found at www.rockandrollcollection .com were signed in front of me, and for many many many reasons, some of which is simply lazy and sloppy bookkeepping, I can not tell you the when and where of when I recieved all my signatures, and I was there. I suppose if I could start all over again or warp myself back to 1984, I could suffice such a request, because I too wish I kept better records of my collection, but it is what it is. I don't actually live for my collection, no matter how devoted and proud I am to it.

I hope all that makes a little bit of sense.
Cheers,
Stephen Duncan
www.jawsfan.com
www.rockandrollcollection.com

Comment by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on April 30, 2010 at 10:06am

You don't have to live for your collection, Steve. It's taken on a life of its own.

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