Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Paul Canning on April 26, 2018 at 12:30pm

The trouble is I only collected face-to-face so if someone else signed it then they would have done it in front of me. The item - the NME - was mine and was packed full of autographs I'd been collecting all year so the item he signed was passed to me directly to Ray and then back again. 

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Permalink Reply by Paul Canning on April 26, 2018 at 12:42pm

It think its all an interesting debate and will clearly divide and never convince some. Of the four people that were there when I met him, I'm the only one left alive. My friend died 2 years ago and i don't know what came of the autograph he got from Ray. In terms of the auction the piece its in is a great item with 78 autographs in. How much attention the Ray Charles autograph gets I don't know. The real items of interest I've got submitted into this first Omega sale is some of my Beatles autographs with a few more to come in future auctions. I thought however I'd come back to here and mention my Ray was up for sale via Omega as it caused such debate before when Phil was on, and it continues to cause debate now. From my perspective it was great to meet him. I saw so many people over a short period of time and some really meant something to me at the time like Ray did and some meant something to me later when they become much bigger like The Beatles and the Stones. Great days and was able to do something that I doubt anyone could do today. 

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Permalink Reply by sling on April 26, 2018 at 3:25pm

the 1st "a" in the RR piece resembles the 2nd "a" in paul's piece.  

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Permalink Reply by Paul Canning on April 27, 2018 at 2:44am

I will say that Ray Charles was one of the nice ones. I recall him being quite nice to us. I've met some bad ones back then and even saw one performer hit a woman in front of us but Ray Charles was a gentlemen. Adam Faith was really good to us also and Lesley Gore. 

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Permalink Reply by a pug called eva on April 26, 2018 at 10:19pm

Just for the record, here is a more - I couldn't get the whole programme on my A4 scanner - complete shot of my programme :

I didn't see the last RR Auction example when it was offered (fourth in your images Steve, the orange paper one with grease stains). What did it go for? I did see that the Back Street menu one went for $5,000 before buyer's premium.

Odd how all these signatures are suddenly coming to market. After I bought my programme last year I did quite a lot of Googling and found very few exemplars. Now RR seems to have Charles' autograph virtually every month. I assume they are just "coming out of the woodwork" as people realise that they can be worth serious money. 

I'm not so convinced by the latest RR "Ray only" piece but would anybody have the need or imagination to add this signature to an autograph book already containing a very clear Beatles set? The vendor's story also checks out in as much as Ray played at the Leeds Odeon in 1964 (info from Bob's site), shortly before the Beatles played there. This ties in with the fact that Ray's signature comes first. Odd that RR don't mention any other autographs in the book. 

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Permalink Reply by a pug called eva on April 27, 2018 at 6:00am

I can answer my own question re the album page auction result - as the total price was around $1,950 odd I assume the hammer price was around $1,600.

Having now accessed the "past results" I see that RR have actually only sold a total of three, all of which have been shown in this thread. I assume that unsold lots don't appear so perhaps they have offered one or two more over the years. Heritage have only sold one - this dubious-looking postcard which was sold in 2015 for under $500 hammer price:

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Permalink Reply by a pug called eva on April 29, 2018 at 10:43pm

This may sound a bit sad but I've been thinking quite a bit about the last Charles autograph that RR Auctions sold (the ca. $1,600 orange album page one).

Borrowing a phrase that gets used a lot with Beatles autographs I think it looks "drawn", like a deliberate attempt to copy elements from believed genuine examples. For one thing the ink looks much less feathery (i.e. bolder) than in all other examples shown in this thread, apart from Paul's NME example.

It is perhaps notable that there is no provenance and that the page has already been framed and mounted for display.

I presume Roger Epperson would have OK'd it but I really wonder whether he or anyone else can say with sufficient certainty that the two examples RR sold for $5,000, this album page, the latest Charles ("Ray only") piece at RR and Paul's NME page at Omega all came from the same (unassisted) hand. All these pieces are shown in Steve's post on the previous page of this thread.

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Permalink Reply by Paul Canning on April 30, 2018 at 12:52am

I think Roger Epperson authenticated a number of mine going into Omega. Personally I think in the case of Ray Charles its very hard to authenticate. I think a big part is the provenance and story in this case. There might be similar traits between his autographs like the "Y" but he couldn't have been able to produce a consistent autograph especially when you look at the factors that might effect it like the surface he's signing on, or how rushed etc etc. I think its an autograph that will always divide opinion. Personally I collected well over 2000 autographs over the best part of 18 months through 62-63 and got an autograph face to face with virtually every performer who came into our city of Birmingham. Only on one occasion was my autograph book handed behind a closed door so I can say that 99.9999% of my autographs were collected face-to-face including Ray Charles. 

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Permalink Reply by michelle on April 30, 2018 at 9:28am

yes , his  autograph may divide opinion but speaking as someone who has taught literacy skills to individuals who have complex special needs, I must say I am struggling somewhat,   to believe that a blind man signed some of the autographs featured in this post;- just my 10 cents  for what they are worth

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on April 30, 2018 at 11:29am

I agree, Michelle. I completely believe Paul is telling the truth, but 55 years is a long time ago. Human memory can't be completely trusted to accurately report what happened 5 years ago let alone 55.

It looks far more polished than the ones in the book, the two programs and Pug's. The one RR just sold looks very close to those, too.

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Permalink Reply by Paul Canning on April 30, 2018 at 9:58pm

yes my memory must be going but if we are ever in the same town feel free to meet up and I'll answer questions on any of the thousands of autographs I collected back then. Can i remember them all? no but I can remember an awful lot and certainly the ones that mattered at the time. In collating the collection we've gone through 1600 autographs so far and there was only two I could not recall and that was Sammy Davis Jr and the other was Bruce Forsyth. The main thing is I only ever collected face-to-face so even in the case of Sammy and Bruce I do know I'd have got them face-to-face because that's what I did back then. There was only one occasion by book was passed behind a closed door and I certainly wouldn't have passed this item back stage as I was collecting a lot of autographs in it and didn't want it to loose sight of it.  

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Permalink Reply by Paul Canning on April 30, 2018 at 9:59pm

Yet he could play the piano which required precise hand and finger movements. 

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