Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Mike White on August 17, 2019 at 7:14am

I don't know about that.

If they know it's bad, then, yeah, obviously they shouldn't sell it.

But if they just suspect it's bad or don't know one way or the other, what's wrong with deferring to the opinion of someone who'll know better than you?

If I think it's bad & they think it's good, but they'd know better than I do (hence my paying them for their expertise in the first place), why would there be an issue with me selling it?

Permalink Reply by wascher on August 17, 2019 at 7:29am

Thank you Terrier, you read what I wrote correctly. 

Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on August 17, 2019 at 8:57am

This particular discussion is a perfect example.  There are two options here.  To put 100% faith in Perry and Frank's opinions on these items, or listen to the case being presented by Ballroom.

Perry and Frank obviously "know better than me" when it comes to Beatles signatures.  I have studied them for years, but I certainly defer to their knowledge and experience.

But I believe there is credence to what has been presented here.  So in this case, if I believe that these items at best, looking at everything, are questionable, I personally would not sell them even with the LOA.  I said before its a personal call.  I am sure many will disagree.

Permalink Reply by CJCollector on August 17, 2019 at 7:26am

Wascher wrote "I am seriously having a hard time watching a few on this discussion saying if they know about a problem, but they have a COA, they'd look the other way and sell it anyway.  To me your as bad as the forger then. "

I agree with that.

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Permalink Reply by Joe W. on August 17, 2019 at 9:19am

I agree with Terrier that it is a personal decision that the owner has to make when we encounter legitimate differences in opinion. This is probably the biggest challenge a collector must face from time to time.

And it is important that these discussions take place. I have seen similar Ringo signed pieces as the OP before and did not care for them as a matter of personal preference. Even the credible certifications do not change my mind.

I believe the owners have every right to sell them without a guilty conscience. The market will decide with their pocket books how accepted they are in the hobby.

There was a time a couple of years ago that members here questioned a particular Paul McCartney signature I purchased(from a member here btw). It later failed a Roger Epperson quick opinion.

I got my money back only for the same signature to come up here again in a later discussion with all members responding that was authentic.

Same autograph, same site, some of the same members with a different opinion just a few months later. Go figure.

Permalink Reply by CJCollector on August 17, 2019 at 7:24am

+2

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Permalink Reply by Perry Cox on August 16, 2019 at 8:05pm

I appreciate all who take the time to read this….

Hello to everyone and thanks to the moderators for allowing me to become a member of this fine community. I’ve heard good things about this forum and I support it. As well, I respect everyone's opinion about anything signed or reportedly signed by any or all members of the Beatles whether I agree with their assessment or not. It’s clear you care about authenticity and you should voice concern anytime something strikes you as odd, or not consistent with what you feel is authentic. It’s what this forum is all about and to put it in plain language, it’s a good filtering place. Every autograph we own or have owned that was not signed for us in person by the chosen artist, was purchased based solely on our opinion and likely the supporting opinions of others to the point where you feel comfortable owning and investing in it. It’s not rocket science, its basic common sense in protecting your fun and your investment at the same time.

The two Ringo Starr signed CD’s in question here are the subject. Yes, I did offer them for sale on Ebay where they did sell very recently. I will discuss those shortly.

Over the many years, I’ve offered 100’s of signed items by the Beatles and solo Beatles. Most involved in the hobby and field of collecting the Beatles either know me, know of me, or have at least heard about me in some way. Doing this for 38 years will do that if you try hard to do what is right the best you can. Those who do know me know that I care very much about the authenticity and integrity of any item I ever sell and render a positive opinion. And that includes any signed items I offer as well. That is why I do, and always have offered a complete lifetime guarantee for any item I sell period. It’s the best I can do not witnessing the signing myself in most cases. Indeed, no ‘letter of authenticity’ by anyone is what makes any item authentic. Not Myself, Not you, Not Frank, Not PSA, Not JSA, Beckett, Global, ……NOT anyone period. The item actually being authentic is the only factor that truly makes it authentic and we do our best to get as close to accurately making the call as we possibly can. And those in our chosen field have the responsibility to do our best to put all of our experience into use when examining any signed item bearing the claim of being signed by any member of the Beatles (or any artist you collect, study or offer for sale.)

It’s my position that nobody on earth now or ever has been 100% accurate 100% of the time when making a judgement call about every autograph presented to them for examination in all of their tenure and experience. It’s simply not possible. We can only do our best based on all of our experience and by consulting with others in the field for their opinions. Because ‘ opinions ‘ is all we can ever offer UNLESS we ourselves obtained the autograph IN PERSON or WITNESSED the signing of the item in front of us and in person. That is the ONLY 100% accurate accounting for any claim of a 100% positive absolute authenticty. Short of that, it’s left to our experience and knowledge to do our best to make the right call. This is true of anyone who writes a document and voices a claim of authenticity for anything signed by anyone. Even when obtaining a signature by somebody who ‘ claimed to get it signed themselves ’ carries with it, an element of risk. That cannot be removed. It can only be minimized to a comfortable level.

They say a person’s signature is a science. Well, I know my own handwriting changed a lot over the years. Indeed, the science of my own handwriting now is not at all comparable to what it was long ago. In addition, I also know I’ve signed documents and my books, etc, many times in a stressed or ‘ less than ideal ’ circumstance wherein my resulting autograph came out a bit odd, or to the left or right of center/convention to what is considered to be the conventional norm of somebody’s signature. Situations like ‘ signing on the run ‘, or ‘ signing out the car window ‘ or signing on any unstable surface. These are just a few of the circumstances often encountered with obtaining autographs. We’ve seen signatures melt down a bit in integrity after signing too many in one sitting, etc.. So many factors can contribute to this.

So what do we do? Most collectors and authenticators simply pick the safest and most conventionally accepted examples of a given autograph and rule out all others. It’s safe, but it’s not always accurate. Many good one signed in less than ideal or in stressed circumstances get tossed out when they were actually authentic. And of course, I don’t blame them for that. I’ve done that too. But authentic examples can and do fall victim to that practice.

Now that brings me to the two signed Ringo Starr CDs recently sold and approved by me and approved by Frank Caiazzo as well. And in fact, Mr. Caiazzo did approve them. I only listed with his approval and they were sent to me by a good customer for listing. Indeed, prior to listing I did note they had some variance from others I’d seen, but I’ve seen variances like this before, so I sent them to Frank for his opinion and he came back with a positive result without hesitation. It was a simply case where he likely signed in a less than ideal circumstance resulting in them being a bit different from the ones he signed during a controlled environment signing. In this case, likely at or near the time of the NYC signing in 2003 where he was known to sign mostly at the FYE store ( a controlled environment), but a few on the fly as usual for a Beatle and it’s those that can be a bit off sometimes from the conventional. That is why the signature differs a bit from the printed one on the CD booklet itself. Of course, we all know Ringo no longer signs for fans at all (since 08) save for extreme rare occasion or his official licensed artwork. I also contacted Frank again today and he confirmed his opinion about them. The autograph field is unlike any other. In other fields, you can bat .400 and you are considered great forever. You can heal some sick and lose others, but are you ‘ the best in your field!’…. In the field of autographs, you can accurately authenticate 10,000 items… but if one happens to get by you, it can result in a good reputation being sullied. It’s a shame, because I always liked working with others on this field to make it better and safer. Strength in numbers, etc.. that kind of thing. Instead, it seems too many are just waiting to pounce on even the good guys. Nature of the beast I guess. I’d like to see it changed. Us good guys can be victimized like anyone else. The crooks and frauds don’t care one bit about anything but hitting and running with a fast buck. They just change their name move on and keep at it. We keep chasing and shooting them down as best we can. As long as there is money in this, it will be like that. Just like every other collectible of value in the world.

I will sum this up this way… It was stated earlier in this blog that I never called myself an expert. That is a fact. I never have. I’m only, as we all are, students of the subject and still actively ‘ in practice ‘ learning as much as I can every day to become better and better at it. I will say this firmly and anyone who knows me knows this about me as well. I try very hard every day to be completely up front and honest and fair in all my dealings just as I would like to be treated. You don’t stay in this field for nearly 40 years by not treating people right. I will once again, reiterate that I will stand behind any autograph I ever sell to anyone. I’ve seen some authenticators who only kick and scream if you ‘ challenge their respected opinion ’. I’ve seen this even when presented with indisputable facts. That is not me. I desire to be better and to learn. It’s why I wanted to join today. Not only to express my position and feelings, but to hopefully work with the community to make it safer out there. Not to attack the good guys, save that for the crooks.

Anyway, I will add that the closest person I know in this field close to enough to being called an expert is ‘Frank Caiazzo’. That is why I consult him from time to time with any item I have a question about including these two CDs. He is considered by most everyone the best in the field of Beatles autographs. I also deal in other autographs and artists as well. Beach Boys, Alice Cooper, a host of others. I also sell just about any good Beatles memorabilia, records, etc. from around the world. Frank ONLY studies Beatles signatures and has for over 30 years now. He specializes in them specifically. You can ask just about any long term respected firm about him and you’ll likely get the same answer. Most who do offer authentication services are not specific to Beatles only. Frank is. To me, that means a lot and always has. But does it make him 100% perfect all the time, every time all the way back? No, nobody gets that claim save for the one fan or collector got it signed himself. Even then, he’s only ‘the expert’ to himself for that one item and if he sells, the next owner will have to ‘ believe his accounting of events ‘ about it.

The field of autographs can be a dangerous experience for both the good and honest sellers who bear the responsibility of guaranteeing for life, and for the fan/collector who places his trust in him. You all have my pledge that I will always do my best to get it right.

I know this response is long, but It’s a most important subject. Once again, I appreciate anyone who took the time to read this. Your opinion is your opinion. And you can feel how you feel about any signature. Your opinion is valuable. Yes, even if you don’t agree with me or anyone else about it.

My very best and again, happy to be here to help when I can, and to learn what I can to help make it a safer environment.

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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on August 16, 2019 at 8:18pm

Thanks, Perry. I am reading it. :)

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Permalink Reply by Perry Cox on August 16, 2019 at 8:33pm

Thank you. I appreciate it.

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Permalink Reply by Ru007 on August 16, 2019 at 8:23pm

Thanks Perry for chiming in

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Permalink Reply by Perry Cox on August 16, 2019 at 8:34pm

Thank you!

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Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on August 17, 2019 at 5:57am

Perry, thank you for coming to Autograph Live, and taking the time to write and confirm what I hope most of us that contribute here already know.  No one is 100%, and unless we obtain the autograph in person, it all comes down to opinions.

I would like to address your comments about the "one offs", or items that are atypical.  I have seen many that would qualify for this category, where its obvious that it was signed in a hurry, or on a piece of paper on the signer's hand, and personally I am ok with these as long as there are some characteristics that are consistent with ones that we know are good.   

The Ringo's appear to be a bit different, as they do not appear to be rushed, but just different.  And there seems to be enough of them out there (that particular style) where yes, I can see where one might be able to be explained, but when you see a few of the same style, it really makes one wonder.  As is the case here.

While I have a tremendous amount of respect for authenticators like you, Frank, Steve Z, Roger (the ones that specialize), I still use the autograph itself as the basis for my decision on what to buy, and if a signature looks off to me, having a letter of authenticity does not influence my decision.  

We are very happy that you joined our community and please continue to add comments where you feel it is appropriate as we are all here to help, and to learn.

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