Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by JK on March 16, 2021 at 1:45am

I have seen either this document or one like it.

It was just typed out on a typewriter, but that doesn't mean it is necessarily fake.  It was for a pretty obscure and specific appointment so they would not have had a pre- printed document. The wording is the standard for appointments so they just banged it out on a typewriter.

I don't see any reason why the water stains would have blurred the ink so no concern there.

The signatures look good at first glance but I am not an expert on FDR.

Note that the official seal is also there so that's a good sign.

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Permalink Reply by Robert B on March 16, 2021 at 9:44am

Thank you for the feedback.

Yes, there are 2 of these documents that I have seen that are signed by Franklin on the very plain letterhead. They were both signed around the same time, but other civil and diplomatic appointments, signed the same year, had the very "official" looking letterhead with the calligraphy etc.

So you don't think that the water stain would have blotted any of the ink or smudged it at all? I certainly dont know, I was kinda just speculating. I don't know why it looks "off" to me, but it does. It looks so uniform. 

I was a little concerned about the seal because it is faded so hard that it is tough to see exactly what it is. Do you know why the paper turns brown like that?

This piece would be personally meaningful to me and my family, so I greatly appreciate your insight. Your response has given me hope. Thank you so much!

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Permalink Reply by Robert B on March 16, 2021 at 9:45am

I should say that this document is from Gallery of History. Do you have any experience with them?

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Permalink Reply by JK on March 16, 2021 at 10:27am

If you look at the fancy appointments they are for things that are routine or common offices. This is a unique appointment. It may have been a "working" document that the person needed to present when he showed up for the event on behalf of the US. The fancy language is standard for official appointments - sort of the legal mumbo jumbo necessary in these cases.

I have a 19th century military appt that was all folded up,  even though it was the fancy document. I guess back in the day they packed those around to show to the commanding officer when they showed up for their assignment. Your FDR doc was probably something the guy carried sort of like an ID or authorization. 

Early typewriter ink would get fuzzy if wet, but I assume by this time inks were more stable.  That stain looks almost like it was rolled up and got some water on the end.

I have heard of GoH but have not heard anything bad other than they seem extremely expensive.  Is this the place in Las Vegas? There are two dealers there, I think, and at least one of them sometimes accepts offers.

The seal is not faded at all. It is blind embossed so it would not have had color. The overall browning could be foxing from age or maybe the paper started out a tan or buff colored.

If you are happy with the sigs I would not worry so much about the typed document. Also, I'd ask the questions of GoH and see what kind of answers they give. 

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Permalink Reply by JK on March 16, 2021 at 10:40am

I might ask them what kind of paper it's on. Hopefully it's on a heavyweight paper and not some cheesy stuff.

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Permalink Reply by Robert B on March 16, 2021 at 11:40am

Thank you for the input. I will definitely ask about the paper.

Interesting about the piece being rolled...I had wondered why there weren't any folds, so that would explain both the lack of folds and the pattern of the water drip.

I initially didn't think this was blind embossed because the seal appears to cover up a few letters of some words. Would blind embossing cause letters to be "hidden" or covered? Or does the process possibly remove some letter that it is placed over...almost like punching them out? It does kinda look embossed as you say.

Yes GoH is out of Vegas. I have known of them for a few years but never bought. They have an almost impossibly large inventory.

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Permalink Reply by JK on March 16, 2021 at 12:03pm

The seal is blind embossed on a separate piece of paper and affixed to the doc.

Yes, their inventory is huge. I figured they buy up tons of stuff at cheap prices and then mark it way up.  Someone must buy something since they are still in business. But it all is priced at top dollar.

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Permalink Reply by Robert B on March 16, 2021 at 3:02pm

They replied to me and said the paper is a "lighter card stock". Do you think that is an appropriate style of paper for a document such as this?

I asked about provenance and they said most of their items come from other dealers or auctions. But as a company policy they don't divulge where the items come from.

Thank you for the info on the embossing, I did not know that.

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Permalink Reply by JK on March 16, 2021 at 3:13pm

I would call it heavy weight paper, but similar I guess...as long as it was not thin cheap paper (which might have been legit but not preferable).

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Permalink Reply by Robert B on March 16, 2021 at 3:21pm

Ok, so in your opinion you see no issues with the piece?

I am very grateful for your thoughts 

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Permalink Reply by JK on March 16, 2021 at 3:29pm

Well I'm not bothered by the format. I am not an expert on his sig.  He did have secretaries. But this is an official doc. And I think too early for autopen.  Hull looks good, going from memory. 

Steve Zarelli is a member here and is an expert in space sigs. Not sure if he does pres sigs. I do know he does do some other than space. But he has a website and you can ask. For $10 he does a preliminary opinion by email. 

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Permalink Reply by Robert B on March 16, 2021 at 5:41pm

Ok, I will reach out to him and see if he can help. I do feel good about the sigs, the paper just seemed so unusual that I became a tad suspicious.

However, your explanation of the embossed seal was very helpful. It would be a rather odd piece to forge though I don't put it past anybody these days

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