Authenticity is Everything
Liza Minnelli Autopen - Kids, Wait Till You Hear This!
****ATTENTION: Steve Cyrkin, who manages this website, has asked for photos of your Liza signature.
You will need to take high-resolution images (3,000-4,000 pixels wide) of Liza's first name, last name, and smiley face SEPARATELY, as close up as can be, and saved as PNGs or the native file format (NOT JPEG).
Please take individual pictures that isolate each segment as best as possible.
Send to: editor@autographmagazine.com.
****Photos must be submitted per these guidelines****
Separately, feel free to also post your photos on the forum below for others to see.
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****WELCOME TO THE DISCUSSION****
“Signed” copies of Liza Minelli’s new book, Kids Wait Till You Hear This!, actually include autopen signatures.
Multiple signatures appear to share identical geometry in specific segments when overlaid.
⚠️ Still frame from a video showing the overlay process between two signatures:
Check out these videos showing the overlay testing process used to compare the signatures.
Note how “Liza” matches up
-First round, note how the “Love” appears to overlay nearly exactly
-Second round, the circle of the smiley face appears to overlap closely, and the L is starting to line up as well
-Third round, the Z and the A in “Liza” appear to lineup closely.
Notice how almost all of the smiley face lines up on this one
-With a slight adjustment, notice how the Z and the A start to align as well
Watch the top of the smiley face. All I am doing is bringing the circle of the smiley face into line. Watch how the Z falls into place. Watch how the top loop of the L falls into place. The “A” is a little off and also the “I” but you can see how they seem to be off by a very small and consistent distance.
Watch how the “OVE” lines up exactly on two examples received by the same person
Notice where “Love” is lining up on these and how much of Liza lines up with a slight shift
Notice how much of the entire signature overlaps
Notice how much of the entire signature overlaps.
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Some of the segments are individually lining up….yet the two signatures appear different on face and when overlaid as a whole.
Here is a visual walk-through of identifying matching segments in overlay. This reflects how the issue was initially discovered.
Example:
First, notice how the L lines up in “Love”:
Make a slight adjustment that then brings the “ove” into line:
Slightly adjust again to bring the L of “Liza” into line:
Slightly adjust again to bring the Z and A into alignment (also notice the “I” and the comma):
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One thing that’s also interesting: If you take the dust jacket off the book, Liza’s autograph is imprinted on the front hard cover underneath (appears to be only on US editions):
That signature matches a verified example that appears to date from at least the early 1990s:
What’s concerning is that some of the signature patterns inside the “signed” books seem very close to that same 90s example, which makes it look possible that the earlier verified signature may have been used as a template for the autopen signatures in the book:
(Book cover signature overlaid with a signature from inside book)
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The signatures in these books appear to have been produced by an advanced autopen system capable of introducing subtle variations in letter structure and placement, likely intended to disguise the mechanical origin.
Please see this video to learn more on how this works:
A thread has also been created to make others aware of this type of autopen usage and discuss if interested:
https://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/beware-of-the-new-a...
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You may also visit the original Liza Minnelli thread, established when the book was announced, to read about the initial development of this issue:
https://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/liza-minelli-kids-w...
Tags: Autopen, Hear, Kids, Liza, Minnelli, This!, Till, Wait, You
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jason H
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There is no doubt at this point these are autopen. Scary as hell too the way things are headed. People don't realize they can completely destroy this entire hobby for just temporary profit. Once they are found out, no one will care about autographs anymore. Value will plummet. I've seen things out there previously that are equally scary as well. Was chasing a few sources the last few weeks but ultimately led to dead ends. They are making stupid mistakes though which means they will eventually be caught up.. but where are we all headed?
Jimmy James mentioned the premium autopen machine and it made me search for some videos.. looky what I found. This is shocking but exactly where I expected autopens were headed
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Permalink Reply by Matt M.
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Not even halfway through yet and “There’s even an option to slightly deform randomized letters, so that not every A looks the same.”
Yep, that’s exactly what’s going on. And that option to shift the placement of a letter slightly. Insane.
That’s not good…. no more templates that are fully the same and easy to match, only individual segments that might match up if we’re lucky.
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Permalink Reply by JIMMY JAMES
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Just saw this and have to agree with you Allginger
"no way she signed all those books!!"
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Permalink Reply by FRANK GARCIA
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After seeing that YOUTUBE video. I have my doubts too. But heres photos of my 2 book front and back.
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Ok, not done yet lol.
Thanks for posting Frank. I just decided to test yours as “ove” look similar in both and I think I’ve seen them before in others.
I’ll try to work on it more tomorrow, but just wanted to show you for now how the OVE lines up exactly between your two examples (and the comma is also very close):
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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin
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Frank, I think yours are signed by Liza. They're not Autopen.
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In fact, I don't think the ones you posted are autopen-signed. I think they're using a different method.
[Edit: I thought I was replying to Matt M. about the original post, not Frank. I don't think the ones in the OP are by Autopen. They could have been done by a different method, and it's possible one or more are real.
How consistently does Liza sign when she's sitting down at a live signing, book or otherwise?
Do we have witnessed examples of her autographs from recent live book signings? I think we need that.]
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Steve, I appreciate you offering your take and we obviously value your opinion. What do you think is going on here?
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I think that some could be machine-signed and that some may not be. I feel strongly that Frank's two are legit. They are well within the tolerances of her normal autograph.
We need numerous photos of her autographs from recent live, witnessed signings.
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Thanks Steve, that’s good to know. I understand what you mean- that example uses a very small portion and I agree it could be within normal tolerances using such a short section.To be honest, I did that comparison fairly quickly at the end of the night, when I started to feel like I was confidently recognizing individual components of an autopen template. I need to examine those more fully and am glad you think those may actually be real. At the end of the day, I want these to be real- I bought one too and think it’s a neat thing to have if real.
But I understand what you are saying. FWIW, I have done overlaying with my own signature. My signature is fairly short and has two M’s and two T’s. I find that the Ms and Ts variously have some points of overlap in my own signature comparisons. However, I am not finding multiple parallel lines and angles lining up as in the Liza’s.
I agree we need some in person / witnessed examples to compare to these generally and still rule out secretarial. I also agree continued investigation is necessary to confirm exactly what is going on. I think it’s very possible these are a mix.
While I’ve seen some that use what appear be too close to say it’s a coincidence, many that I have compare are not similar. I’ve compared examples where I thought, “Hmm, that’s weird…” but didn’t find anything I felt was concrete and would support being posted. Perhaps Frank’s falls into that category and I can remove his example if warranted. I’ve called this the Autopen thread as it does seem there is at least some evidence of that but I don’t mean to suggest they all are at this point.
Anyway, thanks again for your guidance and please let us know if there’s anything else we should be considering.
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What "different method" do you mean Steve Cyrkin, Admin ?
Secretarial? Secretarial mixed with some autopen??
Anxious to hear your opinion on all of this...
And you think both FRANK GARCIA are signed by Liza herself, even
though Matt M. demonstrated both of Frank's OVE overlap and line up exactly??
The plot thickens...
JJ
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