Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Sidney Fields on January 16, 2014 at 4:40am

Great material here!  Thanks for posting and creating a real resource.

I just wish I'd been able to actually see so many of these guys.

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Permalink Reply by Nate on January 21, 2014 at 3:36am

With regards to the amazing RR auction of various signed album pages: I think they also didn't list that on the far right blue album page (in the middle between the 2 pinks) is, I think, the autograph of Hammie Nixon, and there is a good chance the 'x' mark is Sleepy John Estes.

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Permalink Reply by Nate on February 7, 2014 at 1:53am

Hi Carl, 

Just by way of a follow up to this query over the Robert Pete Williams (RPW) autograph.  My lowly opinion is that I believe the one marked ‘Jesse Williams’ is actually a RPW autograph and, ergo, the RR auction is correct.  This is just my opinion but my reasoning is thus:

Below are 2 examples of RPW autographs.  The first one can be found pre-printed on the front cover of the ROOTS (SL-501) album “Son House and Robert Pete Williams LIVE”, here is a close-up picture of my copy of that lp (released around 1966 I believe):

The second example is one obtained in person by one Calvin Taylor.  He wrote an article on meeting and obtaining the autographs of all the blues stars during the 1965 and 1966 AFBF’s in the UK (which can be found here: http://www.jimihendrix-lifelines.net/photos-10/photos-50/styled-371... .  BTW this is also where I got the information that Sleepy John Estes did indeed sign with an ‘X’).  Here is a picture of his example:

These 2 examples are fairly bullet proof for authenticity and are so close to the one marked ‘Jesse Williams’ and the one shown in the RR auction that it would be hard to think that they were not RPW.  That for me then leaves the question of what is the one marked RPW from the 1972 Germany lot? My opinion on this, and this is purely guess-work and not based on any facts, is that the one marked RPW was actually ‘signed’ by Big Mama Thornton.  This would be rather strange I admit but there are a number of handwriting similarities.  Here is a picture of them side-by-side (and I’ll state that I believe that the Big Mama autograph is correct):

You will notice that the ‘R’ in Robert looks like it started out as a ‘B’, and the ‘B’s look very similar to Big Mama’s ‘B’s.  And although ‘Robert’ and ‘Williams’ are spelt correctly the ‘Pete’ is spelt, what looks like, ‘Beet’.  In fact the ‘Beet’ looks very much like Big Mama’s ‘Best’ (and the ‘W’ in Williams looks like the ‘W’ in Big Mama’s ‘Wishes’).  I admit this is all conjecture, and there is a very good chance I am wrong with this, but it might just give an explanation as to why it looks so different to most know RPW autographs.  Carl – are you able to post any other images of RPW autographs that look like the one from the 1972 Germany list? As another explanation might be he was trying out a different type of autograph.

As an aside Jesse Williams played backing guitar in Jimmy Dawkins Chicago Blues Band at the 1972 AFBF, and I have no idea what Jesse’s autograph looks like (so it could look just like RPW’s).

Anyway, as I said before this is all just my opinion, but I list it here for others to judge.

 

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Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on February 8, 2014 at 5:08pm

Hi Nate,

Just saw this. You know, i think you are right, and thats a major plus and explains alot of things. That writing does look very similar to Big Mama's, and easily could have happened. It also makes much more sense as to why you see this style of signature on quite a few items from the time period Williams was alive. If this signature style was indeed from Jesse Williams, then its doubtful there would be many examples at all around, as Jesse was a fairly unknown musician, and i think its unlikely that his signature would pop up, often surrounded by big name blues musicians. No offense there to Jesse though. I think you are correct, and thank you for finding this. Williams is a legend, and thanks to you, i think we now have some solid examples to compare with.

The only strange part to this that i cant seem to find an answer for, is the mislabeling of the Jesse/Robert signatures in the cut. I just wonder why someone would mislabel Roberts signature with Jesse. Or how the name Jesse would even be in someone's mind to confuse the 2. But this could be easily explained if the 2 were playing the same venue or something of that nature. Its just very odd, but i think there is much more evidence supporting what your saying. And finding Williams's autograph pre printed on an album is a great find for comparison sake.

If i am not mistaken that album with the pre printed signature on it (one of the same type), was sold on ebay a few years back as an original signed piece, and it went for like 140 dollars. Its hard to tell from the archived pic on google, but it looks like it simply could have been one of the pre printed albums. If thats the case, i hope the owner figures it out sooner than later.

Thanks again Nate, this is a huge plus to find, for me and others. Great work!!

Carl

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Permalink Reply by Nate on February 10, 2014 at 2:00am

Hi Carl,

No problem at all, I love these sort of mysteries! And just by way of a small follow-up: Jesse Williams and Robert Pete Williams did indeed both play at the 1972 American Folk Blues Festivals, so that may help explain why someone got confused with the labelling (especially if the autographs were cut from a sheet at a later date).

I also find that 'arrow' to the left on Big Mama's autograph strange.  However, if before the autos were cut the RPW was to the left of the BMT autograph, then that 'arrow' does make sense if she signed them both.

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Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on January 17, 2014 at 3:01am

Hey guys,

Thought i would add one or two more this morning.

Some of my favorite blues music came from an amazing player that never reached the fame he deserved,  James "Son" Thomas.

Thomas was a strange bird, at least in my opinion. But that certainly doesnt detract from his talent. Thomas was a great singer, and even better guitar player in my opinion. He was discovered relatively late in his life, but he was a regular on alot of the Delta blues musician tours. Despite Thomas's talent on the guitar and microphone, he just never really made it big. He lived into the early 90's and to the age of about 70. Most blues fans probably wouldnt be able to tell you who James Son Thomas was, but the dedicated blues fans know the mans talent and his legacy. 

Thomas was also a very talented sculptor, and probably was best known locally for his clay art. And this is where i say that he was a "strange bird". Thomas liked to sculpt some pretty morbid art. He would often use human teeth in his work as well as animal/human bones and parts. But aside from this fascination, Thomas made some amazing work, and its well worth the time to google on the net.

Thomas autographs are pretty rare. They typically dont command all that high of a price b/c of his obscurity, but they are quite rare. He did live fairly late, and he seemed to sign freely, but not all that many people seemed to have sought out his autograph. So examples are few and far between. The typical price range in my opinion is between 40 to 60 dollars for a signed pic or CD. An LP may command more. I do not own one, but am always looking for one reasonably priced. I know where one is for sale right now, but the seller asks a premium on his items, and it just really isnt worth the asking price in my opinion. So i will wait and be patient, something a blues autograph collector knows all about, lol.

Here are a few examples that i believe are authentic:

This one i believe is authentic and comes from Mr. Bebop

This one is from ebay i believe, and i think its authentic as well

This is also from ebay i believe, and probably came with with signed LP pic above it

Now this one is currently on ebay for i believe 100 bucks. And i just cant tell on it. I would need a close up, but my immediate opinion is that there arent enough jump out positive traits for me to say its genuine. It probably is, b/c some things look correct, and not many would forge Thomas's signature, but i cant be certain on it without better pics. But i will include it, b/c examples are few of Thomas's sig. 100 dollars is a bit much in my opinion for this item. A prestine LP??? maybe. But an 8 by 10 really is worth no more than 50 in my opinion. But thats just me.

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Permalink Reply by Nate on April 30, 2014 at 4:11am

Here's a picture of my James Son Thomas signed LP:

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Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on January 17, 2014 at 3:28am

Here is one more for this morning, and a well known blues musician that is still living. Matt "Guitar" Murphy is a very well known name in blues circles, and his contribution to the Mississippi blues scene and blues guitar in general cant be denied. Murphy is one of the few who are still alive and kicking that witnessed the explosion and rebirth of the delta blues and chicago blues scenes.

Murphy is a phenomenal guitar player, as most are who get the nickname "guitar". He has influenced many blues titans such as the like of Freddie King. Murphy is probably best known for his playing time with Memphis Slim and the Blues Brothers, but Murphy played with many legends. Murphy also is one of the few blues musicians who dabbled a bit in acting. Murphy was in both "The Blues Brothers" and "The Blues Brothers 2000".

Murphy's accessibility, especially during his acting stint left him very open to the public. And b/c of that, his signatures can typically be found with a little patience. Sometimes it seems like you wait 6 months to see one on ebay, and the next week there are 6 or 7. Alot of people got items signed from Murphy when he was filming, and those are alot of the ones on the market. But Murphy is also still playing and so his signature can still be obtained and he seems to sign often.

In my experience Murphy signatures are about a 40 dollar item. Personally, unless it was a perfect LP or some rare item, i wouldnt go higher than that. There are just to many, and although demand is high for him among collectors, it seems the supply is more abundant than the demand. So i would be patient for the right price.

Murphy's signature seems to fall into 2 categories, really messy, and really neat. It doesnt seem there is much in between, lol. But for the most part, Murphy has a very neat and elegant signature. Also Murphy seems to add the "guitar" nickname periodically. It was more common for him to add the "guitar" in his early career, and typically doesnt add it much anymore. He still does from time to time, but for the most part, he signs Matt Murphy nowadays.

Here are some examples:

This one is courtesy of Andy's website ( AML member and contributor on this thread)

This is an especially nice Murphy, and the image come from google. This is unquestionably authentic as this is a guitar Murphy was pictured with playing and signing. And you can tell he took his time to sign the guitar as nice as possible. A great piece

This one comes from google and i also think its good

This one is from my own collection and i believe it is authentic as well

Here is one from RR auction

Here is one from RR and you can see that this one of Matt's messier signatures. I have seen some messy ones from Matt, but this one was almost so bad i didnt believe it was him. I still cant be for sure, but i think it is matt's signature, just very rushed or drunk. It reminds me more of Mighty Joe Young' s chickenscratch signature then Murphys in this example

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Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on February 2, 2014 at 3:16am

Hi Guys, i thought we could look at a few of my favorites, although not all that well known.

The first was a fantastic guitarist, and major contributor to the Chicago Blues scene, Mr. Joseph Young. Or by his stage name, Mighty Joe young. Young is another one of those guys who deserves so much credit, but never really got it in the way he should have. He was an amazing guitar player, and helped Magic Sam play some brilliant music. One thing i always find interesting are the old fight stories you always hear about with the old blues guys. I especially fell in love with the stories that came from the old delta blues players about bouncing from town to town, free as a bird, playing outside of small shops.......playing, drinking, womanizing, and fighting. Not that thats necessarily what happened, but they make for very interesting stories. Scrapper Blackwell is a good example of a fantastic storyteller that liked to tell stories of this type. Joe Young was actually a boxer and i have heard some stories about Joe's reputation on the streets, and he was not one to be messed with. But he helped to influence a new generation of blues players, and in my opinion is one of Chicago's blues legends.

Might Joe Young signatures are fairly rare. Which falls into the same enigma as most blues players. Young lived into the late 90's, so you would think that his signature would hit the market commonly. But it really doesnt. You probably will have better luck finding Muddy Waters than Joe Young. Typically a few a year pop up on ebay, but they are scarce. He surely signed quite a bit, but either people dont want to give them up, or there just werent all that many people asking for autographs. I cant imagine why, b/c he was a great player, but thats how it goes i suppose. When you find them, you should be looking to pay around the 40 dollar mark for a CD or card, and maybe around 50 for an LP. I personally would not pay more than that for an item. If you are patient, you will eventually find one at the right price.

Here are a few examples of what i believe to most likely be authentic pieces. Joe's signature is typically fairly nice, and his J's are very distinctive. He also lifts the pen numerous times through his signature, which makes his style kinda unique. And i think its unlikely you will encounter a forgery, but do compare with authentic examples if you can, b/c they probably will look very similar to these.

Here is one from my collection on a signed CD

Here is another from my collection on a signed LP along with Muddy Waters, Ko Ko Taylor, Son Seals, Lonnie Brooks, and Willie Dixon

Here is a nice example from Mr. Bebop which sold on ebay

And here is one from ebay. To be honesty, i see alot of good things, and a few unusual ones. But i do think its probably good. A rushed example, but a good one

I should also add that one tendency Joe had, was that when he signed he would, more often than not, angle his signature. What i mean there is that he would typically start his first name on a slightly downwards slope, and the rest of his signature would progressively angle downwards more. He also typically would sign "mighty" on one line, and then "joe young" on the second line. Athough i find that most of the time its item dependent.

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Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on February 2, 2014 at 3:49am

Another blues artist i really admire is John Chatman, better known as Memphis Slim. Most know of Slim, as he was one of the key figures in the blues world. Slim was a vocalist and very accomplished piano player. Slim helped to define the "Jump" blues sound and recorded with a host of other mainstream musicians. Slim often would partner with Willie Dixon and Big Bill Broonzy, and it is those recordings that i like the most. Slim, combined with Broonzy's guitar playing, is just amazing. And despite his immense popularity here in the states, he was even more popular in France and other European countries. Slim moved to France in the later half of his life, and became one of, if not the most in demand blues musicians in Europe. He performed regularly up until the last few years of his life. Slim will always go down as one of the finest blues piano players to ever play the keys.

Slim signatures are fairly rare. He lived into the late 80's and signed quite a bit, but people want his signature and hang on to them tight. A few come to market every year, but they typically go for a fair amount. It really all depends on item, but for a signed note card, id expect to pay between 60 to 80 dollars.  A signed LP, probably at around 150 or so. But those prices are just estimates. Slim had a nice signature for his day. His signature to me has always had the appearance of being neat and tight. Most of the time his signature was very readable, but compact. Slim's signature is also pretty recognizable. His M's are distinctive and so is his "S" in Slim. Quite often Slim would put 2 lines through the S, turning it into the symbol for "cash/dollars". Sometimes he would stack his signature and make the ending line of the first "M" in his name, form one of the 2 "slash lines" in the "S" of Slim, forming the dollar symbol. Below are some items i feel are authentic.

Here is a typical example from RR auction

Here is another from RR auction. Its in the bottom left corner, and you many need to save the image and enlarge it to see it better. But its a typical Slim signature.

 Here is one i find authentic, although i dont recall the source

Here is a nice example that recently sold on ebay

Here is another from RR auction. This one is more unusual. It looks rushed and is less compact. But still has good characteristics and i believe its authentic

Here is one from ebay that is a nice example

Here is an interesting example from Andy over at bluesfan. Andy is a great guy and a great resource for authentic blues autographs. This card his some really cool signatures on it, and Slim must have been in a big rush when he signed it.  But it still is worth noting, although it wouldnt be much help in authenticating a standard Slim signature. But its a great historic item, and the other signatures on the card are 100 percent legit. And i actually believe the story on the item, if i remember correctly, was that Slim was indeed in a big hurry when he signed it.

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Permalink Reply by Nate on February 3, 2014 at 3:26am

Hi Carl,

Still loving this article, thank you for continuing to update.  Thought I'd add a bit more of mine (and tidy up what I've posted already).  So here's my Memphis Slim:

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Permalink Reply by Cliff on September 17, 2014 at 8:17am

Carl,

Thank you so much for all the info here, it is appreciated.  I was cleaning last night and found this in a box of things I haven't looked at in years and quite honestly, I forgot I had it.  Anyone want to add thoughts on how this one looks? 

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