Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Chad B on December 29, 2014 at 11:03am

After reading through all of this I suppose the Jerry Lee Lewis thread wasn't so messed up after all.

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Permalink Reply by CJCollector on December 31, 2014 at 5:59am

I'm still waiting for someone to respond to to my question "Why don't buyers of autographs take responsibility for their purchases?"

Why is it that later down the road, if there is an issue, the collector always blames the authenticator?

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Permalink Reply by Pete Bendu on December 31, 2014 at 7:09am

Christopher, 

 It's the nature of the world today, everyone has a lawyer, and everyone is ready to sue at the drop of a hat. This has just begun seeping into this hobby in the last few years because they feel there is money to be made.

In the past few decades legal actions brought against sellers of autographs has usually ended with a judgement that results in the seller closing their doors and reopening with a new name. ie CPG Direct into Truly Unique Collectibles.

The authentication companies make far more money than these minor dealers and may just pay off the judgements, so people feel it's worth trying.

To answer your question, why take responsibility if you can make some money with a lawsuit? Or at the very least bitch and moan for months online about how the 3rd party authenticators have wronged you.

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Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on December 31, 2014 at 7:26am

I believe that most buyers do not have the desire, time or inclination to study autographs. Where would the inexperienced buyer go for authentic exemplars for comparison? For example if a buyer wanted a jackie Gleason autograph and decided to use items certed by one of major TPA's for comparison there is a high probability that he or she would have ended up with a secretarial.
Buyers are looking for some "guarantee" that what they are buying is authentic. Most of them do not want to to the work. Years ago when the TPAs were starting out people felt that if an item carried a PSA/DNA sticker it was no doubt authentic. So of course if an item they purchased previously with a TPA cert is later deemed not authentic they are going to point the finger at the authenticator. Not saying it's right, but that might be part of the thought process.
Personally I would trust authenticators that focus in a specific field more than the ones that offer opinions on anything and everything.
And what many buyers don't understand is that what you are getting from any TPA is an opinion. Not a guarantee.

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Permalink Reply by CJCollector on December 31, 2014 at 8:47am

Pete, it's sad that the hobby has come to that.

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Permalink Reply by Jeffects on December 31, 2014 at 10:58am

CW,

Oh, was that a question you wanted answered?

Generally people don't expect an answer to an obviously rhetorical question.

Is this the new direction were going to go here, after Frosts "forged LOA" attempt failed?  Blame the stupid collector for trusting the word of, and expecting some due diligence from the self proclaimed "experts".

Here's a shocker, some people don't do their own taxes either.  They trust the guy who does it for a living.  If he knowingly doesn't do his homework, (claims he does and claims to be virtually infallible,) then takes my money and doesn't deliver, I consider that fraud.

Virtually every authenticator is also a dealer, they authenticate their stuff, their friends stuff, slap a COA on each others stuff, and then consigns it anonymously to an auction house (just like here).  Most are in bed with each other. 

You do your videos, "This is Bad... Crap... Garbage...."  but I have never seen you offer anything to help collectors as to what to look for, or identifying a forgery when buying an autograph.  And now you just blame them?

How do you inform anyone, or help buyers become more informed?  You have an agenda also.

So someone want's to buy their kid an autograph of their favorite star.  Do you want them to do six months of research just to not get ripped off?

Or perhaps they could just buy from a dealer who says they are an "expert" (also an authenticator), have been studying autographs for 30 years, they offer a lifetime guarantee.  (no such thing, by the way) That sounds pretty safe...;. Then lets say,

You go to Mister Expert, someone you trust, and have done business with many times, and you plunk down 10 grand for a signed album.  You go to PSA, and they say it's a fake.  You try to get a refund and your old pal says, Take it to my friend (and only my friend) at PSA, "he'll pass it now."

Are you kidding me??

You ask the dealer for a refund (lifetime, remember) they say tough luck, threaten you, insult you, and your only recourse is a lawsuit.  Who the hell needs that??? 

Wouldn't it just be easier to live up to ones word, Uh, I guess not.

What exactly did the buyer, the guy who's out 10 grand, do wrong? to deserve that? other than to trust someone who proclaimed themselves "The Best" (his friends all vouch for him) offered a lifetime guarantee and delivered nothing but headaches and legal fees.

If you want to save the world, how about warning your fans on You-Tube about these MJ forgeries that are flooding the market for tens of thousands of dollars, even with a "REAL" COA attached.  The $50 Mantles and Jeters can wait a week.

Jeff

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Permalink Reply by Prashant Kaushik on December 31, 2014 at 11:11am

Wow, Jeff!  VERY WELL PUT!  I am in full agreement with your post!

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Permalink Reply by Michael Frost on December 31, 2014 at 11:35am

You are in full agreement please explain to me this.

 "after Frosts "forged LOA" attempt failed? "

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Permalink Reply by Jeffects on December 31, 2014 at 11:44am

As posted earlier in this thread:

Then we seem to have PAAS implying that the COA's from Epperson may not even be REAL.

To Quote Mike Frost:

"The first important fact that I have located is several pieces that have been noted to be authenticated by Roger Epperson, were in fact never seen nor examined by Roger."

How about we just talk about the pieces clearly identified here Mike.

But what did Roger say about them?  Again I quote this from Roger:

"There is no doubt in my mind that the MJ drawings I did and will do more LOA's for are without question authentic."

And:

"I have absolutely no problem with drawings that I have cert'ed.  None whatsoever."

So which is it Roger?  Did you cert those drawings, and stand by the authenticity, or not?

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Permalink Reply by Rick Meyer on December 31, 2014 at 12:08pm

"The first important fact that I have located is several pieces that have been noted to be authenticated by Roger Epperson, were in fact never seen nor examined by Roger."

Mike, I'm curious why PAAS is in here speaking for Roger. Isn't his company completely separate from yours? This is exactly why Jeffects states that all you authenticators are in bed with each other. It looks to me like you all are going to stick up for each to no end in this.....even if a mistake was made.

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Permalink Reply by Michael Frost on December 31, 2014 at 2:59pm

That is nonsense, from what I have seen on AML and in his lawsuits Roger does not need anybody to stand up for him.  

What I have said is that many of the pieces of artwork that has been sent to me to review, examine and authenticate claim to have been authenticated by Roger Epperson.  After a lot of investigation and research, it has now come out that not only has Roger not authenticated many of these items, but he has not ever seen these pieces..

* I am not talking about the few pieces I have seen with Roger's Certificate, There are a least 15 pieces claimed to have been authenticated by Roger Epperson, that I have found no evidence of a COA or trace that Roger has even been sent them for examination.   

I hope that is a little clearer for now, there will be much more to be to be said in the near future including were these pieces of art originally have come from.  

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Permalink Reply by Rick Meyer on December 31, 2014 at 3:17pm

Much clearer Mike. I misunderstood. I didn't realize you were talking about submissions of items directly to you. Thanks. I do like that you never seem to back off a question and take the time to answer them all.

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