Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by JK on November 26, 2022 at 1:29am

I read Bob's statement and personally I take it at face value. Actually, he gave an important clue.  He said it was suggested to him and he was assured that "it happens all the time in the art and literary worlds". 

I have always suspected that S&S was also a victim in all of this, and I continue to believe that there is someone (a third party) out there who is pitching this sort of fraud. Bob has alluded to this.

And by the way, at some point the company that makes the autopen machines and templates becomes complicit. Years ago when it was politicians using it to sign their own letters and photos that was one thing, but now that it is celebrities using it to perpetrate a huge fraud for financial gain that's another thing altogether. The autopen company is providing the tools to make the fraud possible.

I would love to see a Congressional investigation into these practices with hearings and testimony from people across the industry.

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Permalink Reply by PFCollector on November 26, 2022 at 1:44am

I could see Bob himself not knowing... he's probably well insulated from the normal world... but there's almost no way his team and management don't know nobody wants to pay $600, or $3000+ for autopens. So the blame still lies on him and his team. 

S&S can't be seen as victims imo... even if they were for the Indigo release, after that they were well aware the autographs were fake and still chose to sell them directly. Then vehemently denied they were fake for a day till tons of media picked up the story. Then suddenly changed their tune. I imagine if only a few of us on here would have complained they would have kept denying it and only refunded those who filed disputes. 

The problem with autopens is they can be used on as legally binding signatures, so they're seen as being "real" autographs technically... but the reasons for needing a signature for a legal document is entirely different than wanting one because you want something physically touched by/or a small part of the person you're a fan of... so I think them being "real" signatures legally is what causes problems. That can give people like Dylan reason to say whoops, we thought they're the same as a hand written signature... and the company that makes them can tell artists, these are legally binding signatures, just like hand written ones, so it's fine to use them in place of your real signature. There should be some refinement to the law that says they can be used as a legal signature on a document, but cannot be sold as signatures unless it's specified to the buyer. The problem is no lawmaker is gonna care and it's only an issue to a small fraction of the population. Unless maybe there's an autograph collecting lawmaker out there. 

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Permalink Reply by JK on November 26, 2022 at 1:55am

Yes, that is the problem, that autopen signatures are "legal" if authorized by the person whose signature is represented.

They have already been used at least once to sign official documents (an order extending the provisions of certain legislation) by the president of the US.

However, as suggested, they are not suitable or acceptable as autographs sold to collectors as authentic signatures.

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Permalink Reply by JK on November 26, 2022 at 2:12am

Yes, we are all in agreement.

Autopens are not acceptable to collectors. But the fact is that they are valid for legal purposes.  Some celebrities/management/marketers don't make this distinction.

I don't know why these discussions often end up with people who are on the same side arguing with each other.  It’s such a waste of effort. :(

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Permalink Reply by PFCollector on November 26, 2022 at 2:48am

Yup, you got what I was trying to say. Glad someone does on occasion lol.

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Permalink Reply by Jor-El on November 26, 2022 at 2:52am

A common misconception is that when something is "valid for legal purposes" it makes it "legally valid" (in other cases) and that's simply not true.

You can create or own a fake Louis Vuitton bag - when it's stolen from you it's legally your bag and you have a legal right to claim it back.

However that does not legally make it a real LV bag.

So while an autopen can be claimed as legally being from the artist, that does not mean it can legally be seen as hand-signed.

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Permalink Reply by JK on November 26, 2022 at 3:21am

Who here has stated that an autopen is "handsigned" or acceptable to autograph collectors?!  (Hint: NO ONE).

There are obviously some people out there in the business or marketing world who decided that since autopens are "acceptable" or "legal" for other purposes that they could be used on books and art prints as well.  What we as collectors see as fraud, they see as a brilliant business strategy.

Stating this fact does not mean that people here agree with that mindset.

And BTW, what passes as acceptable in the art world would shock many people here.  Some of the top artists outsource the actual creation of their artworks to studios.  The artist comes up with the idea and then another person paints or sculpts the piece. It is then sold as an original artwork by the famous artist. 

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Permalink Reply by 5816nick on November 26, 2022 at 2:20am

I think it may be a slightly different case in the UK as we as consumers have more clout  - we have the 2015 consumer rights act  which is Law and i am well versed in as I have a current problem over another expensive purchase (Nothing to do with this) , there are internet and long distance seller regulations in the UK  which I'm guessing you don't have in the USA?

I would love to know what Bob Dylans response is going to be, but I will be contacting a UK lawyer over the weekend, I suggest others do aswell, particularly anybody that has bought a £3K -£25K  art print too in the last 2-3 years! 

I will also be contacting Jonathan Karp at S&S as according to the statement Mr Dylans Team will be operating with the Publishers and Art galleries to put this right - when they say that I would assume anybody that ordered a book from anywhere will be receiving what they ordered - the same as anybody that ordered a signed art print too - I'm assuming we all want what we ordered and a written apology hand signed by Mr Dylan??

I suggest everybody starts bombarding Jonathan Karp in the US and Suzanne Baboneau in the UK of S&S to see how they and Mr Dylan are going to put this right as this isn't going away anytime soon! 

Because I sure as hell want both a signed book and a signed apology - with not an autopen in sight ever again ! 

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Permalink Reply by JK on November 26, 2022 at 2:29am

People who ordered a book were refunded the purchase price.  S&S made them whole.  They even got to keep the autopen forgery.  They are not legally entitled to a free authentic book (and letter) on top of that. 

People need to stay within the realm of what is reasonable and realistic.

If everyone gets their money back then after that I'd be happy if the autopen scams in the publishing and art worlds were put out of business once and for all.

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Permalink Reply by Lars Olav Karlsen on November 26, 2022 at 2:33am

Thats true - but a refund does not take away that we were victims of fraud, and if we had not exposed this ourselfs we would not have recived any refund.

If you belive you can try fraud and everything is good if you refund when you are cought then you have to read the law better.

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Permalink Reply by JK on November 26, 2022 at 3:04am

In the US we have civil and criminal courts.  I believe that fraudulent behavior itself, apart from what is reimbursed,  comes under criminal court.  Prosecutors need to initiate those cases. In civil cases, the injured party or their lawyers would initiate the process.

As far as civil courts are concerned, as a practical matter, once you've been made whole financially, the claim is satisfied. If you have lots of money to burn, you can keep suing and suing, with an uncertain outcome.

Your suggestion that I am saying that fraud is OK if you refund if caught is total nonsense.  It gets back to my point about people attacking each other here when we are all on the same side.

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Permalink Reply by JK on November 26, 2022 at 3:34am

Some people confuse criminal and civil issues.

If you think a "crime" was committed then get a county, state or federal prosecutor to indict Bob Dylan.

Fraud is a crime, but considering that many violent crimes don't even get prosecuted now, I doubt Bob Dylan is going to be charged criminally, especially if people are being refunded. 

If you think you have a civil case, then stop pontificating here and cough up the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars that it will take to hire a lawyer to sue Bob Dylan.

This community has already achieved a tremendous victory with the refunds and admission of autopen use.  If you want legal action then see above.  

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