Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by stephen aronson on March 22, 2014 at 10:46pm

I want to make one point here.  I dont agree with the assessment of "over market."  The "market" is established every time there is an auction.  R and R offers top quality stuff with the highest degree of authenticity.  That means that in good economic times and a hot stock market (i define good economic times as good times for deep pocketed collectors), prices will go up materially.  That is what is happening now throughout the memorabilia markets on high quality stuff.

Many deep pocketed collectors dont trust ebay and wont bid on it.  They are afraid of the scams and the forgeries.  You pay a premium to buy from R and R, but you know the stuff is real.  Paying for the peace of mind is something that many advanced collectors are willing to do.

At the end of the day, any asset is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.  There have to be at least two bidders to drive the price, and given the level of confidence i have in the integrity of R and R, i would bet that there is no shill bidding going on.  Thus, the market value is by definition the price that was paid at the end of the auction.

Logic tells you that if items sell for thousands and are readily available for cheap prices on ebay and are authentic, then lots of people should be consigning those items to future R and R auctions, in which case the prices should come down.

Said another way, i dont think people should be ashamed of winning an item in an R and R auction just because the price seemed expensive.

Ramming speed to all

general counsel

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Permalink Reply by George Karr on March 23, 2014 at 4:13am

I'm not sure that all their stuff is real. Of course, they work with the most reputable companies... But we all know that sometimes they make mistakes: there are many examples on the forum. I've found many items at RRauction that look at least strange to me and don't really understand how someone decided to authenticate them. I think true collectors shouldn't trust anyone.

Permalink Reply by stephen aronson on March 23, 2014 at 10:44am

george, if you dont trust anyone as a collector how do you ever buy anything that you dont get personally signed (ie see the person sign it yourself???)  Doesnt that philosophy somewhat limit you in purchasing autographs or collecting autographs of the deceased?

Ramming speed to all

general counsel

Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on March 23, 2014 at 11:23am

I don’t agree with your assessment of market value. If an item sells for a certain price while similar items are available for sale within a lower price range, wouldn’t the price of that item be considered “over market”? You’re saying that a premium is being paid, and yet that premium price should be considered market value?

Why would advanced collectors need to pay for “peace of mind”? Confidence in their purchases should largely come from their own knowledge and experience. I would think that less experienced collectors would be the ones willing to pay extra for peace of mind.

There actually doesn’t need to be two bidders to drive the price. Some auction houses, including RR Auction, allow straight bids. A straight bid allows a single bidder to drive the price.

Permalink Reply by George Karr on March 23, 2014 at 11:46am

Stephen, personally me, I mostly collect vintage autographs and usually of the deceased people. By "trust" I mean to be 100% sure that autograph is genuine and modern technologies doesn't allow us to be sure. I know that PSA/DNA and others are good with many autographs, but I have seen them authenticated forgeries. I just want to say that sometimes RRauction is selling autographs that simply impossible to authenticate. Just take a look at this Fred Mcdowell above- how can somebody be sure, that this one is genuine? And RRauction authenticators always repeat: "all our items are genuine". Well, to me their confidence sounds ridiculous...

Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on March 23, 2014 at 3:54pm

I dont have the autograph knowledge of some, but i think i do have a pretty good knowledge of blues autographs, so i dont mind commenting. The major auction houses will always get a premium, at least in my opinion, and if you have the money to burn, then by all means. There are some who can spend 10K a day, and never notice it. But, i dont imagine many like throwing away money, even the mega rich.

I thought the prices realized at RR were very high on most of the blues graphs sold, not all, but most. This really doesnt have to do with availability in some cases, as much as it does the auction and supplier. The marvels of music auction gets mega attention worlwide, so that was plus 1. The 2nd, is that the seller was Larry Rafferty. Any serious blues autograph collector knows of Larry. He has/had one of, if not the most complete and in depth blues and jazz collections in the world. And most were on vintage 8 by 10s. He spent his career developing this reputation, and he is known worldwide. And his ebay account is also known worldwide. And i can tell you for a fact, that all his items get above market value for the most part. And in alot of cases it doesnt have to do with rarity, as it does with his reputation. And thats cool if you want to buy off that to be safe. But in many cases the market value is much lower and authentic examples can be found with a little effort.  But Larry had basically the best blues collection in the world, so his items can command major prices.

The were some that surprised me greatly, like the John Lee Hooker, that one went very high. And it will not resale for that. But the one that i truly feel someone was extremely foolish on was the Willie Dixon. Now i could be wrong. If that is the only pic Dixon ever signed of that pose, or the photo had some special meaning, then maybe, but i didnt see that in the description. I have a very good knowledge of what a Dixon is worth, and i assure you, that pretty much the ceiling price on a Dixon is 50 bucks. And i am being very generous there. That would be the price for a signed LP or something special. You will have no trouble finding a legit Dixon on ebay any given week. Most dont sell, and those are typically priced under 30 bucks. And i have seen numerous photos, LPs, and everything else signed by him. Forgeries of Dixon are also basically unheard of. The main reason being, he just isnt a signature that is in that much of a demand.

I am all ears to if that Dixon photo was special in some way, but im telling you, if that was just a niced signed photo, then someone got royally taken in my opinion. Thats not a slam on RR, good for them, nor on Larry or anyone else. If it was worth that to the buyer and they had the money, more power to them. But should they ever decide to sell that down the road, they would be profoundly lucky to sell if for 50 bucks, let alone over 1000.  I can tell you with all confidence, that ebay is actually the blues graph collectors best friend.

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Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on March 26, 2014 at 10:56pm

Hi Guys,

I tell you what, i am just at a loss for words. And i hope someone can fill in the pieces here for me. As a blues collector, i have a pretty good grasp on what alot of blues signatures are worth. In this last auction, there were some amazing and rare items, and they brought in great amounts. Many went for far more than they were worth in my opinion, but thats to be expected considering the auction, and consigner.

But, there is one in particular that i just cant get past. When i last checked the auction price on the Willie Dixon photo, it was over a grand, and i thought the auction ended. I was shocked beyond shocked it went for that. But i must have seen it while the 30 min rule was going on, b/c today when i checked the final result, the end price was 5, 676 dollars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Guys, i am just stunned. How can this possibly have happened???? Someone please tell me if there was something ultra rare about this photo. Was this the only known photo of Dixon singed? Is it made out of gold in some way?? I just dont see what i am missing.

Over 5 grand????????????  Okay, i checked ebay today, and there are no Dixon's up for sale, but i see them all the time on ebay, and most of the time they dont sell. If you search around on the net, i can almost guarantee you can find a legit auto for sale by a dealer for probably under 50 dollars. On ebay, you wont see them go for more than 40 dollars typically. Among blues collectors, to be frank, his signature doesnt carry much value. They are very common, and i have seen all forms of media signed by him. I have 2 in my collection. 1 i bought on purpose just for his sig, the other came with his sig as a bonus.

One is a signed playbill, and i think i paid around 10 dollars for it on ebay:

And the other is a signed LP in great condition signed by Muddy Waters, Lonnie Brooks, Son Seals, Mighty Joe Young, Ko Ko Taylor and Willie Dixon. I purchased the item for Muddy's sig, as i already had all the others. I paid 350 for the LP. Here is a pic of the Dixon on it:

Here is the description from RR on the item that was sold:  "Glossy 8 x 10 Rosebud Agency publicity photo, signed in black felt tip, “From, Willie Dixon.” In fine condition. RR Auction COA". I read nothing anywhere about this being a super rare photo with some major significance. And the Dixon in question, isnt even a vintage photo. Its a standard publicity shot. Here is the item:

So how is it, that this piece, which to most wouldnt sell for over 50 bucks, went for over 5 grand??? Thats as much as the Leadbelly went for, a piece that is roughly 5000 times rarer than Dixon. How is it that it went for 4 times more than a Charlie Christian? With that money you could have bought a set of Bealtes signatures, a Hendrix signature, or a George Washington signature. 

Now if you have the money, then do what you want, each to his own. But even for the mega wealthy, if there is nothing special about the photograph itself, then i cant imagine anyone liking to throw money away. There comes a point and time where i would think the collector would have a realization of what the value of an item really is. If there is something special about this photo to a person, or something like that, then i can understand. But if 2 collectors went at it, just b/c they want a Dixon signature, then they really really dropped the ball. I mean, they would have a hard time getting over 50 bucks for it most anywhere. 

So someone please tell me if they know, am i missing something here? Is there something unbelievably special about this photograph?? What made a 50 buck signature (being very generous on that amount) go for 100 times the value. A fair price for a typical Dixon signed photo or even LP is around 40 bucks. So what gives?

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Permalink Reply by michelle on March 27, 2014 at 12:10am

+ 1

 

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Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on March 27, 2014 at 6:55am

So someone please tell me if they know, am i missing something here? Is there something unbelievably special about this photograph?? What made a 50 buck signature (being very generous on that amount) go for 100 times the value. A fair price for a typical Dixon signed photo or even LP is around 40 bucks. So what gives?

I can’t speak to the Dixon specifically, but I can share an observation that may make sense.

I have often seen certain items go for high above their expected “fair market value” in specialty auctions. I suspect that some people save a chunk of money for these specialty auctions, and if they fall out of bidding on one item, they divert the funds to another item. In effect, they have been anticipating getting something nice and the money is burning a hole in their pocket. They want to come out of it with something, even if it means paying more than they normally would.

Secondly, RR Auction typically obtains strong prices because they go the extra mile to offer authentic items and back it up with excellent customer service. There are many collectors who would never even think of dealing with the potential pitfalls of eBay just for the sake of saving a few bucks… they’d rather deal with someone who offers good service, provides good jobs to their staff and won’t disappear if there is ever a problem.

In full disclosure, I am the space and aviation authentication consultant for RR Auction and I am proud to be a part of their team.

Steve Zarelli
Zarelli Space Authentication
www.SpaceLOA.com

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Permalink Reply by roger epperson on March 27, 2014 at 7:06am

Zip, Amen to that!

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Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on March 27, 2014 at 6:55pm

I certainly understand where you are coming from Zipper, and i agree. RR draws big crowds, and big money, and the auction consignor, Larry, also drew in mega blues collectors. And you will always get top dollar on nice auction houses like RR. Thats why, i wasnt terribly shocked to see past RR sales for Dixon autographs go for around the 200 mark or a little over. Not everyone has the time to invest in graphs, and they want a sure thing for authenticity, and RR is a great way to go for such an individual. And paying a little more for that security isnt a bad thing. 

But, there surely is a point to where a potential buyer would do there homework and realize what an autograph is actually worth. If there is something special about this photo, maybe some sentimental meaning, or a mega rare photo, then i can understand. But, i can almost guarantee, that the real draw in for this item was that it came from Larry, and Larry's buyers are typically very well versed in blues graphs, and know there value. So i must be missing something. What was the draw in here? Surely there has to be one, if not, someone got smoked, royally. To pay more for a Willie Dixon than a Leadbelly is absurd.

A comparison would be like paying 500,000 dollars for a set of cut Beatles signatures. Typically such a set (just making up a price example) may go for 5 grand on a nice set of cuts at a major auction house. But would a beatles collector, knowing what they are worth, pay 500 grand for them? Thats basically what went on. A 50 buck graph turned into a 5500 dollar graph. 

I understand premiums, and how reputations and guaranteed authenticity plays a role. But this was just insane in my opinion. If you got the money, then more power to you, and some do, but good grief.

Has anyone else seen an example of a graph go for 100 times its value for no apparent reason? I am not downing the buyer, and certainly not the auction house. I just dont understand the value here and what went on to drive this price so high. I cant find any possible explanation. Dixon is one of the most common autographs from a deceased musician in the blues world in my opinion. I see them all the time.

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