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Charlton Heston - secretarials, variations & authentics (post 'em here)

This is the place for the discussion as to the follow-up for the secretarial study thread.

That thread; proposed;

The Theory
Photographs and other memorabilia sent to Mr. Heston's office were signed by a secretary. However, Mr. Heston did authentically sign books through-the-mail.

Real vs. Secretary
In authentic signatures, the R in "Charlton" is distinctly a lowercase "r" and less than half the height of the L. The first four letters are clearly "Char."

In secretarial signatures, the R looks much more like a lowercase "l" and is about the same height as the L. So, the first four letters appear to be "Chall."

and it seems to have merit. However, in looking at hundreds of Hestons of late there are many that fall into the above theory and yet quite a few variations that aren't so clean. There are no sacred cows in this thread but do keep it civil.

Bear in mind as you cascade thru the many examples below there are clearly some that fall into this, some that don't and an interesting variation.

Some commentors have been quick to point out that dealers and sellers of these items may have fallen into following a "bogus" exemplar. I will post Jan Schray's exemplars and the "secretarial" one touted here will be found in her 1997 exemplar book. Thus, without a date on COAs it's hard to tell when something was sold.

Cyrkin in the other thread opted to close it with a number of justifications; ... indisputable work. It's at risk of being adulterated by Hestons being presented as either genuine, out and out forgeries, or variations of known secretarials without the painstaking, focused research and consensus-building that made this study so valuable in the first place. That's beyond the scope of this discussion and is putting the study's clarity and integrity at risk.

I for one could not disagree with this rationale moreso. It is thru the posting of perceived hestons that either lends support, refutes or enhances the theory. I noticed the updates to the original blog include; I will note that, out a hundreds of exemplars, I found a handful of books that did not have a distinct "r" formation. My theory is these books may have been through-the-mail exemplars signed by a secretary. The reason for this could be that Mr. Heston's schedule did not allow for signing at that time or, once his illness took hold, secretaries began signing books through the mail as well as photos.

I've also noted this in same discussion with Zipper and there was a suspicion that other forgeries were apparent. it is the continued flow of questionable non-authentic items that gives strength to any theory. I'll attempt to capture the many examples before they are arbitrarily removed.

6/13/12 - Rules of the Thread;

R1 - stay on subject (don't care for moderated blogs but since owners of threads have little recourse to have comments removed at their discretion).

R2 - if you are going to post a link than at a MINIMUM post the picture of the item. The secretarial study thread has a number of links to non-existent photos. Esp Ebay ones as they have been removed by EBAY or no longer visible. If you don't know how then after you post the comment pm me and I'll capture the picture for posterity.

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by DB on September 8, 2012 at 5:16am

then we have those that drive one to drink... More! You let sellers know of the error, let ebay know that it's not Charles Heston (long ago) and yet there it still is... So a 2nd more terse report is in order.

You don't even need to go to the PSA COA to see it's charles harper. I know they got confused as they both have a C & H!

but just for the record;

Item: Photograph

Primary Subject: Charles Harper

Authentication Date: 04/05/2011

Result/Grade: Authentic

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Permalink Reply by DB on September 8, 2012 at 5:47am

last one for the day but even at $99.00 this comic book seller may need to invoke the coa lifetime guarantee

[Image removed for posting violation.]

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Permalink Reply by DB on September 13, 2012 at 8:21am

Oh no, the AML picture police have struck! I was about to respond on their status but oh no. henceforth, I will simply for the most part post a link (and if it expires x days from now, oh well) rather than run afoul of the AML picture police or more importantly copyright protections.

& oh by the way, the above 3 were removed and no longer available.

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Permalink Reply by DB on September 16, 2012 at 3:52am

every so often I go back over the older posts to see what if anything has been corrected. Now we all know that Golden State Autographs has received good marks overall. The following is from the original study thread;and an update that follows;

Reply by Caleb Gluck on March 8, 2011 at 6:34am

I've been putting it in my catalogs for decades: the photos are/were secretarial and one should only trust the checks. Unfortunately I'm all out on the checks that I had:-). If one bought the "Moses" and "Ben Hur" photos from dozens and dozens of dealers, I would still recommend that the buyer go back to the dealer to request ones money back. Caleb Gluck Golden State Autographs

Reply by DB on March 13, 2011 at 5:54am

Don't know if this is still up in your shop but it appears you have a matted ensemble for sale that falls within the "dbl L" brand parameters;

update 9/6/12... Decided to check the ensemble on Golden State Autographs site and cannot believe it is still there claiming all 3 signatures were obtained IN-PERSON. Could be that it is no longer available and the website is dated but why would that be? Can one imagine paying $295.00 for an ensemble that claims "in-person" but one is a secretarial heston. Since this was noted over 18 months ago one has to wonder (regardless of explanation or excuse) as it ought not be depicted on a website never mind available for sale.

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Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on September 16, 2012 at 9:14am

Hi DB,

I might have an answer on that, but cant be completely sure. I contacted Caleb about 2 weeks ago b/c i wanted to buy a few signed items, and when i sent an email asking about their availability, he told me that someone ( i guess a large buyer) had bought up everything. I dont know if that referred to every item he had on the site or just certain items i was asking about. Although i dont think he was referring to just the items i was talking about. So if i had to guess i think most things are old and outdated and Caleb just hasnt gotten around to updating things. At least thats what i got from his email. So maybe that explains things a little bit. Thanks for all the posts.

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Permalink Reply by DB on September 16, 2012 at 11:34am

Thanks CR - hopefully one of them wasn't the ensemble but it is silliy to leave this sitting around & visible especially after 18 months has transpired. One would think that would be enough time to update one's web site.

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Permalink Reply by DB on September 18, 2012 at 5:23am

It seems I see more of this lately on "I'm a member of the UACC" etc..... and thus this is a good thing. We all know many of these places have a difficult time policing their own and there is a major distinction between being an RD -vs- simply taking out a "subscription" then claim "member in good standing". I have whined about this before as it can often times mislead people into thinking that it must be authentic which wouldn't be the case in this one; coverscape

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AUTOGRAPHED-actor-gun-rights-icon-Charlton-...

does this mean demerits are awarded?

MEMBER IN GOOD STANDING: AFDCS (American First Day Cover Society), APS (American Philatelic Society), and UACC (Universal Autograph Collectors Club).

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Permalink Reply by DB on September 18, 2012 at 7:56am

1 demerit awarded; Item 250133854470 is no longer available

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Permalink Reply by DB on September 18, 2012 at 5:41am

Louie et all - does anyone have a copy of the Sanders Guide that has a Charlton Heston signature in it that they can scan and post. I don't think I've seen one.

IT IS AUTHENTIC & HIS REAL SIGNATURE!!! In the SANDERS AUTOGRAPH PRICE GUIDE.

Of course what this seller jodyangelb29 is selling is a non-authentic heston.

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Permalink Reply by DB on September 18, 2012 at 7:23am

every now and then I'll post pics while avoiding the wrath of Khan and trademark infringement oriented. The seller claims; This comes from a giant autograph collection from a gentleman in Miami, FL (Bill Carrasco) who over the years accumulated 1000's of autographs from stars, celebrities, and sports figures.

& the COA is yet another one of those classic ones that issuers have lots of wiggle room.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on September 18, 2012 at 7:28am

I'd be quite surprised if this was authentic. It appears someone was making an attempt using an earlier Heston signature as a template.

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Permalink Reply by DB on September 18, 2012 at 7:33am

based on the earlier samples with the same "exaggerated" end that Brick published several pages earlier I'd be equally surprised as it follows that flow. The reason I felt this forgery would be good to see is it is indentifing a source in Florida.