Authenticity is Everything
Liza Minnelli Autopen - Kids, Wait Till You Hear This!
Starting this separate thread to track the Liza Minnelli autopen situation.
Signed copies of her new book, Kids Wait Till You Hear This!, include autopen signatures.
You may also visit the original Liza Minnelli thread, established when the book was announced, to read about the initial development of this issue:
https://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/liza-minelli-kids-w...
Feel free to post your examples or any info on the return situation.
Overlay Video 1 (click title to play video)
Note how “Liza” matches up (click title)
-First round, note how the “Love” appears to overlay nearly exactly
-Second round, the circle of the smiley face appears to overlap closely, and the L is starting to line up as well
-Third round, the Z and the A in “Liza” appear to lineup closely.
Notice how almost all of the smiley face lines up on this one
-With a slight adjustment, notice how the Z and the A start to align as well
Watch the top of the smiley face. All I am doing is bringing the circle of the smiley face into line. Watch how the Z falls into place. Watch how the top loop of the L falls into place. The “A” is a little off and also the “I” but you can see how they seem to be off by a very small and consistent distance.
Watch how the “OVE” lines up exactly on two examples received by the same person
Notice where “Love” is lining up on these and how much of Liza lines up with a slight shift
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Some of the segments are individually lining up….yet the two signatures appear different on face and when overlaid as a whole.
Example:
First, notice how the L lines up in “Love”:
Make a slight adjustment that then brings the “ove” into line:
Slightly adjust again to bring the L of “Liza” into line:
Slightly adjust again to bring the Z and A into alignment (also notice the “I” and the comma):
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It appears that the autopen signatures in these books were generated by an advanced autopen machine that can produce subtle variations in letter structure and placement that would disguise the use of autopen. Please see this video to learn more on how this works:
A thread has also been created to make others aware of this type of autopen usage and discuss if interested:
https://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/beware-of-the-new-a...
Tags: Autopen, Hear, Kids, Liza, Minnelli, This!, Till, Wait, You
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by JIMMY JAMES
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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin
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I don't see any signs of machine-signing on these. Any similarities look natural.
How many exact duplicates have been posted, here or on other sites or groups? Please post them.
I'm checking in as I can, but I am jammed right now. That's why you don't see me as much these days.
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Permalink Reply by Matt M.
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Steve, thanks for taking the time to respond and let us know what you’re thinking.
Let me take a step back and share my thoughts about all this.
When we see something in the hobby that raises red flags, I feel like we should say so. My intention isn’t to stir things up for the sake of it, but I do believe questionable patterns deserve to be examined openly.
I’ve been part of this forum for a while and have participated in similar discussions before (including the situations involving Bob Dylan, Dolly Parton, and Bon Jovi autopen questions). In those cases, like here, the goal has always been the same: look at the evidence and try to figure out what we’re actually dealing with.
I’m not an autograph expert and I’m not claiming to have the final answer here. What I’ve been doing is looking at the signatures as objectively as I can and sharing what I’m seeing so others can evaluate it as well.
Yes, the main tool I’ve used is digital overlays. In this case, what caught my attention is how many elements appear to line up extremely closely across different examples. It’s not just general letter shapes, but spacing, curves, and specific segments of the signature that appear to match up in ways that seem unusually consistent.
As we know, tiny differences in curve shape, letter spacing, angle, or proportion tend to creep in from signature to signature. What surprised me here is that certain segments, when overlaid, appear to align with almost identical geometry across multiple examples. Not entirely but some segments do.
That level of repetition is what raised the possibility that something more mechanical could potentially be involved, because identical geometry repeating across multiple signatures is generally not what you expect to see with natural handwriting.
I know you asked why there aren’t exact full-signature matches if these were autopen or mechanical reproductions. That’s a fair point. My understanding is that older autopen systems often relied on a single fixed template, but modern signature-reproduction tools can work differently. They can be vector-based, digitally captured, or software-assisted, which allows signatures to be slightly altered, scaled, or adjusted between uses. In those scenarios, you may not see full one-to-one matches across entire signatures, but you can still see repeating geometry in specific segments — exactly what we’re seeing in these examples. Is it possible this new technology can produce autopen signatures that can maintain a realistic flow and not leave dots?
Based on what I’m seeing, the similarities appear strong enough that the possibility of autopen or some other type of mechanical involvement at least deserves serious consideration.
I understand that overlays alone don’t prove that definitively, and I’m open to other explanations (including that exactness can be maintained across many autographs). But the level of geometric similarity is what prompted me to bring it to the forum’s attention. If others want to look at the overlays themselves or try the process independently, I would actually encourage that.
I also completely understand that some members think the signatures may be genuine, and that’s a valid viewpoint. My goal isn’t to dismiss those opinions, but to present the comparisons so people can examine them and decide for themselves. Again, I know autopen discussions can feel like the hobby crying wolf, but occasionally those discussions have turned out to be important.
For what it’s worth, I don’t take these issues lightly. I own one of the Bob Dylan paintings that were discussed in the earlier in the discussion. It takes up a large amount of real estate on my wall, and the questions around those signatures have honestly made it difficult for me to even look at it the same way. That experience is part of why I care about getting these things right and getting to the bottom of them.
I also want to acknowledge that discussions like this may put the site in a difficult position. This forum sits at the center of the autograph hobby, and many collectors, dealers, and industry people pay attention to what’s said here. I appreciate that weighing in on questions like this isn’t always simple, and I respect the fact that the site has always allowed open discussion of these topics even when they’re uncomfortable.
We also obviously value your opinion and recommendations. My intention is simply to examine the signatures and let the evidence speak for itself.
If the discussion and comparisons are helpful, I’m happy to keep putting in the time to examine the examples and share what I find. But if people feel the topic has run its course or everyone is exhausted by it (which I completely understand), I’m also fine with letting it rest
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Those backs don't show signs of machine signing. Completely natural.
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History for Sale has 42 Liza Minnelli signed items for sale, including contracts. Many are in marker. They range from the 1960s until probably 2008 or so. https://www.historyforsale.com/s/Liza%20Minnelli
They are honest and reliable. You may find secretarials from time to time, honestly missed, but they state they'll refund your money if they fail PSA/DNA, etc.
AND if people tell the dealer about pieces that they don't think are real that the dealer missed, they take it seriously and remove ones that don't check out. That may be why there are so few Jackie Gleason autographs.
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Permalink Reply by michelle
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Here is a Liza signed poster from 2 years ago
bit of a difference to the peachy perfect ones now signed
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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo
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Lovely, and starting to show the degradation Joyce Randolph met at older age.
1987 age 63:
November 2013 age 89:
2019 age 95(!):
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Ah yes Eric Keith Longo,
The lovely Trixie Norton RIP on The Jackie Gleason Show.
Loved every episode of that growing up.
And yes, you can see the decline in her signature over time.
With Liza Minnelli, no such decline,
ALL sigs are magically plum and "peachy perfect" as Michelle said above.
JJ
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That's another thing that bothers me about these Liza's michelle,
They are ALL, as you put it, "peachy perfect".
No way, they're real.
JJ
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Permalink Reply by Jason H
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Steve there seems to be contradictions. you say there are machines out there which are more sophisticated than the one in the video I posted in the other discussion. I would love to see an example if you can provide one. are you saying that these new machines do not have variable pressures? I believe they would. This is why I am studying the backs, to see if there are any tell tale signs.
what I dont understand is, there are clearly pieces of signature with exact similarities between many that can not be replicated by human hand. It's obvious. Why would you defend franks so quickly? we are in the middle of research. This aspect seems very strange to me.
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