We are an eBay affiliate and may be compensated for clicks on links that result in purchases.
Authenticity is Everything
Mantle, Williams and DiMaggio: Authenticating Baseball Forger Favorites
While it would require far more than a single article to educate the autograph collector to detect Mantle, Williams and DiMaggio forgeries, there are some general as well as specific warning keys to these three autographs that may aid in detecting possible forgeries.
Genuine Mantle, Williams & DiMaggio signed photo provided by EAC Gallery.
Click to enlarge:
As a general rule, one of the first things I examine in an autograph is its feel – how it was written. When an individual signs his name there should be an easy, smooth flow to the signature. We’ve all signed our names countless times, and we don’t need to think about it. An item we offered in one of our past auctions was a sheet of paper signed several times by Joe Jackson. Jackson, who was almost completely illiterate, actually had to practice, in essence work at, writing his name prior to signing documents. Likewise, when a forger writes a signature, he or she is working at it and therefore upon close examination it’s often possible to detect such warning keys as a slowness of motion, stops and starts at inappropriate spots, and possibly even a shakiness in the writing. An invaluable aid to help detect these keys, taught to me by John Reznikoff of University Archives many years ago, is to turn the autograph upside down. When you view an autograph in an unnatural position these warning keys are often easier to detect.
In addition to such general warning keys there are specific warning keys, unique to an individual’s autograph, to keep an eye out for.
In the 1980’s and 1990’s Mickey Mantle stated on numerous occasions that he was blessed to be able to earn more money signing his name at one single weekend show than his father had earned in an entire year working as a coal miner. Because of this Mantle always felt his fans were deserving of a clear, elegant signature. In authentic Mickey Mantle autographs Mickey would always end the “y” in “Mickey” on an upswing, and because he would be quickly flowing through his signature, he therefore started the “M” in “Mantle” on a higher level or plane than he had started the “M” in “Mickey”. Most forgers, because they were “working” on writing Mantle’s signature, would pause after completing “Mickey” and begin anew in writing “Mantle”, therefore placing “Mantle” on more of a straight line with “Mickey”. If one places a ruler or sheet of paper straight across the item Mantle signed (not straight across the signature) all that appears below the ruler or paper of an authentic Mantle is the bottom portion of the “M” in “Mickey”. In the case of most forgeries the ruler or paper completely covers the entire signature. Another difficulty forgers have with Mantle’s signature was his unique way of looping the bottom portion of his “M”. Such curved lines were executed in one easy movement by Mantle, but are most often elongated by forgers who again are “working” the signature. Such slow, elongated forgeries are especially easy to recognize on baseballs as their curved surfaces only add to the forger’s difficulty.
In the case of Ted Williams autographs, with the exception of the capital “W” in Williams, Ted would consistently make the size of all the letters in his last time nearly the same exact size. Most telling is the “illia”, with the “l”s just ever so slightly taller than the “i”s, and the “a” as tall as the “l”s. Try as they may, most forgers simply can’t undo years of training and habit causing their “l”s to be significantly taller than their “i”s, and their “a” significantly shorter than their “l”s. Williams also connected the “W” in “Williams” to the “ed” in “Ted” with a swirl that gave forgers difficulty in replicating in the same, easy, flowing movement as appears in authentic examples. Also of interest, in addition to the many Williams intentional forgeries in existence, Williams revealed late in his life that during his playing days his signature on team signed balls was often a “clubhouse” example, not penned by him.
Regarding Joe DiMaggio’s autograph, problems for forgers begin with the first letter in Joe. Like the “M”s in Mantle’s autograph, the “J” in “Joe”, which appears as two loops, a larger loop on top and a smaller one below, were created by curved lines which are the hardest to duplicate without leaving telltale signs of slowness or inappropriate stops and starts. In addition, DiMaggio would pen his “J”s so that the lower loop would be written on top of (literally written over) the upper loop in two places. For some inexplicable reason, a significant percentage of DiMaggio forgeries flow in the opposite direction, with the upper loop covering the lower one. An inexpensive magnifier or jeweler’s loop will aid in viewing this detail. Finally, the general feel of an authentic DiMaggio autograph is often somewhat sloppy, in the sense that the spacing between letters is uneven, obviously much more so in his second name. Again due to the fact that forgers are working rather than simply signing, the spacing they place between each letter is far more uniform.
Finally, the age-old adage “experience is the best teacher” is indeed appropriate here. The building of as extensive a library of exemplars as possible, of both authentic and fake examples, would be of help to visualize these and additional warning keys, and tremendously assist in the detection of forgeries.
Tags: authenticate, baseball, dimaggio, fame, forgeries, forgers, genuine, hall, hof, joe, More…
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Steve Wilson on
-
Remember, I beleived the ball to be real. As soon as questions were raised in my mind I removed the ball from the auction site. Go see for yourself. I do not want it both ways. My photos are interlectual property. Please remove the photos and the listing and let this end here. I'm doing the right thing.
-
Permalink Reply by Lance on
-
People need to see what fake Mantle autos ect. look like in order to fix this beloved hobby of ours. This site is for posting what we find to be fake/forged items. It's a discussion group that offers opinions and nothing more. We learn from each other to become more aware of what to look for when purchasing items such as yours.
Your ebay images are public domain.
-
-
Steve,
I too bought a fake ball awhile back...and it sucks...but it'd serve you well to trust Chris and Mr. Zipper. They are honest, albeit blunt, and are a great resource. Don't be offended...they are doing a service to the industry and doing it for free. Before you buy another ball in the future, I'm sure they'd be happy to vet it for you. On a side note, as Chris pointed out, there is nothing "interlectual" about posting an ebay link. Best wishes in the authentication.
-Michael
-
Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on
-
I think Steve is another victim who was burned by the forgery sellers, and probably didn't know that his ball was a problem until it was pointed out. As we know, people like Steve have been scammed by the hundreds of thousands.
-
-
Steve,
PSA charges $100 to authenticate Mickey Mantle. Unless you have a good chance of getting your money back from the seller with a rejection letter, I think you're better off asking sports dealers what they think. Don't tell them it has a B&J COA if you want. Then send it to be authenticated if it turns out the members who commented here are likely wrong.
I'm not an expert, but I've learned a lot here from people like Chris Williams and Mr Zipper. Not only is the style of your Mantle much like many others considered forgeries, it's signed very slowly, instead of quickly and naturally like Mantle would do if he signed it himself. I would be shocked if a qualified authenticator called it genuine.
Regarding use of images and screenshots from eBay: We are permitted to use them under fair use laws, and legitimate (non-malicious) speech about matters of public interest, like consumer protection, are protected as well. eBay likes that we expose fakes and other problems, because it helps make eBay safer.
-
-
I agree with everything being said. Afterall the site has raised good questions about my own ball. Fortunately I traded two footballs Eli Manning and Lawrence Taylor to my cousin for the Mantle ball so if it proves to be a fake I will be able to undo the trade. My problem is seeing my ebay name associated with the fake ball. You are providing information. My problem is this can be harmful to my reputation because my auction name is listed on the image posted. The ball with a COA has been condemned without enough evidence to destroy my good name I have worked hard to maintain. Afterall, the ball is not confirmed a fake at this point. I will get a second opinion to put the questions to bed in my own mind. I may have a cousin to stomp! Can we come to a compromise? Remove my information from the site for now. I will have the ball reverified and share the findings with the group with a COA or letter from Steiner, PSA or JSA. If it's real leave my photos and listing off the site. If it is fake I will agree to the photos being posted to help others avoid trouble. but leave my ebay listing info off the site. Is that fair?
-
Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on
-
IMO, I would remove the information that identifies you as the seller but leave a photo of the ball itself as an exemplar. We have all made mistakes and honest sellers shouldn't be tarnished for an honest mistake.
-
-
Good idea... if this were me I'd want my ebay screen name removed especially if I did know that I was selling a forged ball.
-
Permalink Reply by CJCollector on
-
Usually, I am reluctant to do that, but in this case I have asked Mr. Cyrkin to remove the screen shot of the Ebay listing.
-
-
-
That's not true Lance. I believe Chris brought this site to my attention and raised the initial concern. It's comments like this why I AM VERY CONCERNED about my reputation. I have a COA, I was not aware of B&J involved is possible forgeries, and still do not know for sure that my ball is fake.
I'm going to take a wild guess that you may have burned yourself. Now that I have read this site and the others suggested I suspect that most of us probably have.
I'm the one that has $500 in signed footballs and the relationship between my cousin and I at risk. Although, I suspect, if the ball does turn out to be a fake my cousin didn't know it either. He has cherished that damn ball for years. Flaunting it in front of me every time I visited. I was thrilled to finally get it.
So please stop making accusations. I'm an honest guy who has passed up a lot of easy paths to remain that way.
-
Blog Posts
Gold & Pawn Trading Center Sells Forged Mickey Mantle Photo COA GFA
Posted by CJCollector on November 27, 2024 at 2:23pm 0 Comments 1 Like
Ebay Seller Smpsportscards Sells Forged Counterfeit Willie Mays 1996-97 Topps Autograph Card
Posted by CJCollector on November 11, 2024 at 6:03pm 0 Comments 1 Like
COA CSA Authentic Forged Babe Ruth Cut Autograph Laughable
Posted by CJCollector on November 9, 2024 at 2:32pm 7 Comments 0 Likes
Photos
© 2024 Created by Steve Cyrkin, Admin.
Powered by
Badges | Report an Issue | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service
